Need advice, is this abusive or should I leave it?

[Unsure05]

What would you guys do? I’m not one to comment on other people’s parenting, I’m not perfect, I don’t know enough etc etc. But my older sister has a 4 year old girl. She is on the stricter side of gentle but likes to follow gentle as best she can. Her husband is what he calls a “disciplinarian”. He had an abusive childhood, is an ex veteran and doesn’t really do the emotional side of parenting. There’s the odd thing I’ve heard and seen where I’ve thought it was a bit harsh, or too much shouting or not saying very nice things but never anything I would want to comment on. But I spent the day with my sister yesterday and she told me something that happened as if it was a funny anecdote but it’s really concerned me. Basically her daughter is going through a stage of breaking her toys/ripping her books etc and she purposefully broke a necklace of hers and tried to sneak it into the bin and lied about how it broke. This was apparently the straw that broke the camels back with her dad and he took all the toys out of her bedroom, made her stay in there with just a chair and her bed and wait in silence until her mum (my sister) got home from work which was about an hour. When my sister got home it was silent and her husband said what has happened and when she went upstairs her daughter was just sat on her one chair silent and cried and my sister resolved the issue but found it funny how extreme it was and that she was just sat with nothing. It baffled me and my heart broke for her. I work in a nursery and I know if we got told something like this we would have to question it with the parents or write up a cause for concern based on what the child had said that could be kept on file incase a pattern of these things arises. So I’m also concerned that my niece might say something to her reception teachers and my sister might not see how serious this could be taken. Would you say anything even though it’s basically questioning the parenting??

There’s more to this I feel….

Maybe, the more I sit and think the more I worry that if that’s what she’s happy to tell me about, is there anything she’s not. If that’s funny to her, what isn’t?

they started making her put her hand up at home to talk so she would stop interrupting etc.
I can see the point of this, but getting her to do this in her own home doesn't sit well with me. It feels like they're shutting her down. It's more usual to say something about the interruption and tell the child that you'll be with them in a moment when you're done with the current discussion. It's hard because sometimes the tone, the emotions expressed and the way things are explained are an important point of difference between whether something is teaching a child correct boundaries and politeness or whether the way they're being treated is potentially harmful.

Exactly. Different if he'd broken almost her toys.

I am kind of amazed that a 4 year old stayed still for a whole hour tbh. Mine 100% would not have managed this at 4.

Agree an hour with nothing to do is harsh, probably for any age and hasn't really taught anything to the child.

Not that it makes much difference but was the necklace special or especially expensive to provoke such a strong reaction?

Exactly this! And sometimes we have such lovely visits and then other times things happen that I would see as harmful. So it’s really hard to know how to go forward with it because I don’t want to say the wrong thing but I feel like I might have to say something. Just keep fretting about it!

Regarding the necklace, it was my nieces and a present from our mum but nothing expensive or anything like that

I feel like another thing worth mentioning, now I’m thinking about it again, is that my sister has always kind of adapted based on the man in her life. Like she would change some interests or make sure his needs come first, which is fine, but sort of more than normal? She grew up a bit insecure and overcompensates with this. Her husband has his mental health issues and she supports his boundaries to no end, even with issues with our parents which is a very long and unnecessary story! And she said that he was holding his boundaries when he did this and she had to respect that. But where’s the line here?

Hmm, not sure I agree with the logic there. We shouldn't really be using our past abusive childhoods to justify or inform parenting choices of our own children (wouldn't you actively avoid this?)

It is harsh for a 4 year old imo. And I have to assume the child is relatively well behaved /compliant generally to follow the instruction to stay in their room for that long. As I said, I am taken aback she stayed there.

Maybe she was scared not to or knew if she didn’t the consequences would have been worse

Children break things. Adults also break things. Children are just small humans. They don't need any kind of drastic measures or punshment schedule, in order to help them make sense of the world. Making a four year old sit in a room that's been stripped other than a bed and a chair for an hour is OTT and counterproductive, at best.

You feel uneasy about this because you know it's the tip of the iceberg.

If that's true, that is worrisome

Yeah that’s why I feel like I need to say something one way or another but just not sure how or what to say exactly

I agree with all of this.

Your update re ‘putting her hand up ‘ also gave me a chill.

Your sister is allowing this treatment too. Would your sister be happy when he starts telling their daughter she cannot sit and the table with them and has to eat alone? When he tells her that she cannot be in the same room as them and has to stay out of his way? When she is older isn’t allowed to ask for things/wear things he doesn’t agree with?

I think that a 4 year old is old enough to understand consequences BUT she is 4 - just a baby.

And he is an abusive bully.

I agree, he sounds awful - harsh punishments do not produce secure kids

I think an hour is far too long. My child would have been devastated by this at 4 (if they had broken something I'm pretty sure they would have been comfortable enough to be honest about it). I also don't like the sound of making her put her hand up at home. It doesn't seem appropriate imo.

It's not an appropriate punishment to be sat in a room with nothing for an hour 4 minutes to a 4 year old is like an adults hour so that would be like you sitting in an empty waiting room for 15 hours.

Yes I agree with all of the above. It’s definitely helped ping pong off of these comments to feel like I’m not wrong to feel this way. Now how would you bring this up with a sister that your close to but can get defensive easily?

I think putting your hand up is odd and worrying what's next eat from a bowl on the floor because of poor table manners, sleep on a floor because you wet the bed ....the whole thing would concern me but need careful handling or you may not have any contact. Can you talk to safeguarding for advice?

Four! I'm not surprised she's lying about stuff if this is how her parents react. I'm not surprised she's breaking stuff, either. It's obviously made very clear to her that nothing she owns is really hers.

I don't think it's a remotely productive way to teach a child how to behave, taking away everything they have and leaving them on a chair in an empty room to cry alone. I hate these elaborate showy punishments that people think up for these tiny people who are trying to manage huge emotions and have so little power.

Hanging around wanting your attention when you visit? She's four! 😔

Putting her hand up to be able to speak in her own home to her mum or dad?! 🥺She's four!! But whatever age that's a bit extreme.

The fact she sat still and quiet for an hour in her empty room is heartbreaking. Likes she's resigned to these sorts of punishments and scared to "make noise" and receive a worse punishment. 😔

There's no wonder she hid a broken item really is there. Poor kid.

My youngest is four. I feel so sad for her.

IF she is purposefully breaking items it could be impulse control, or her communicating her hurt over her home life, or a sensory need, etc. I'm not saying parents should just smile glibly when a child breaks something but this is way over the top and her acceptance of it is also telling. 😔

I'm curious about the issue with your parents.

And also curious who moved an hour away, you or them.