To think State education is really poor?

[Boswelian]

We sent our eldest to a taster day at a private school. He was agog. His school don't allow playing on the grass when it's wet. The private school change them into waterproofs and wellies for break. PE 3x a week. Sport every day. Dedicated specialist teaching in art, DT, languages, sciences etc. 16 in a class instead of 30. The difference in the quality of life between the two school has really blown my mind. The state school is "outstanding". The private school reckon DS is 2 years behind their curriculum. We've been told in state that he's meeting expectations. How is this remotely acceptable?

@Newuser75 as are the kids at DDs private school. You can't attribute a narrow set of behaviours to an entire group of 1000s of children. There are entitled kids at both state and private schools just as there are decent kids at both.

I'm explaining what I see with my own eyes over more than two decades, call it inverse snobbery if you like. Fwiw I don't think it's all kids from that background (I mean, DH went to boarding school & I quite like him).

By 'family setting' I meant in that moment out with the family having lunch/dinner.

And yes, I can well imagine there's an increase of low level anti-social behaviour exactly as you describe, I can't deny that. But I'm talking about a specific situation in how differently private school kids behave vs state kids that I see day in day out where I can draw a direct comparison. Really, there aren't many situations where you can do that cos generally the two groups are entirely separate.

I wouldn't want to make blanket statements like that, there are some proper shits at my kids schools lol (eldest was one of them at some points 😬), just like there were at mine. I'm really explaining what I see in very specific circumstances.

@Caerulea How do you know where they send their kids to school if they are eating lunch? This is a very strange sweeping comment.

@Caerulea well DD went state primary and now private secondary so I can compare to the other kids in the village who go to state secondary and their experiences as she is still friends with some of them. DD has zero issues on the school buses Vs her friend who had her hair chopped off on the bus home from the state school plus lots of low level bullying every day.
My point is that we each have our own experiences but I would never tar all state school pupils based on that very small sample. There are good and bad kids at all schools.

There is a level of entitlement though. I know kids who literally believe they are better people because they attend/ed a fee paying school. As parents that’s a message you need to quash, and not all do.

Not directly, on an individual level, no. When I worked at an excellent private girls' school, quite a few parents told me that the biggest reason they were sending their daughters there was the kinds of students they would be with (in terms of behaviour and aspirations, but also diversity). I can see why. The students made it a pleasure to teach there too.

Unfortunately, knowing, understanding and having empathy about the reasons for the high levels of poor behaviour in many state schools doesn't make it any easier to learn or teach in them. It is understandable that many parents (and teachers) will avoid that if they are able to.

Some people seem to think that even admitting the incontrovertible fact that those differences between most state and most private schools exist is inherently snobby. Pretending the problems don't exist doesn't make them go away.

@KevinDeBrioche as do state parents who kids feel they are entitled to continually disrupt whole classes and prevent other kids from learning. Like I said, there are entitled kids in all settings. DDs school makes sure the kids are very aware of their privilege and generally turns out well adapted, rounded and humble students. Not all private schools do but there again not all state schools do either because let's not forget that some wealthy parents send their kids to state schools too.

In one respect it's obvious, quite often due to RP but there are other things very specific to the area I'm in. But more literally, they break up a week earlier for summer holidays than state schools do.

Remember - this isn't necessarily a class observation it's a private vs state school observation

I understand what you're saying but it's a different point to mine - however just because your daughter hasn't experienced bullying doesn't mean it doesn't exist in private schools, it very much does.

I am talking about my observations over a long period of time in a very specific situation where you wouldn't ordinarily have this cross-section. This isn't 'I work at McDonald's' vs 'I work at Dinner' where the customers are largely from the same background which is generally true of every day life where there is natural separation in hobbies/eating out /sports etc etc

@Caerulea I've never said that bullying doesn't happen, my point was that you can't tar all state/private kids with the same behaviour just because you have witnessed a small sample of that population.

@Caerulea actually most private schools break up approx 3 weeks prior to state schools ie first week July. The 1 week difference would be more suggestive of state schools from a different LA/County.

Yes you're right, my apologies. Was rushing around getting ready to leave for work. I was just getting out of the car thinking about it being longer than a week.

(now I'm in, should say I've an issue with remembering & the concept of time periods, my brain doesn't work for it. I often have to check with DH about stuff 🙄. So the rest of what I said still stands. I always found it odd that the most affluent were able to take advantage of the pre-season prices for holidays)

But it's not a small sample, it's thousands of people over 20 years & I'm not alone in this particular part of this industry - I promise you. I'm sorry it's uncomfortable & sure, MN is the last place to accept this kind of criticism, but it's what I see & many others in my position see too.

I don’t see how this contradicts what I said

The sad thing is that the system used by the majority is crumbling. I teach and have seen the erosion of staff pupil relationships due to curriculum overload. Classes are too big, there is not enough provision for those with additional needs and pupils and staff are overwhelmed.

@Caerulea OK so all private school kids and parents are entitled and vile and the kids hate their family time. OK.

Don't believe I said that 🤷🏼‍♀️

The problem is that people do not see education as a privilege any more, they have become consumers, where "the customer is always right". This has seen the erosion of the "service", if you like, and the outcome.

I don’t really think it should be viewed as a privilege though. Education is a legal requirement, a fundamental human right, and forms the future workforce. Yes it’s a privilege in the sense that children could be down the mines but I don’t really think that should be our benchmark.

We all have our own experiences. None of DDs friends are entitled etc but I'm not saying it doesn't exist however I've met many rude and entitled state school kids too.
You have experience within 1 setting but don't write off all private kids and parents, in my experience it isn't a true representation.
Maybe that's just the sort of people that the particular setting you are talking about attracts and possibly I would never go there as it wouldn't be "us" so would never witness that type of behaviour.

Sorry, but why is anyone surprised by this?

@CaptainJackSparrow85 "The problem is that people do not see education as a privilege any more,"

Good. They shouldn't.

@CurlewKate

Yes, I agree. I was quoting a poster upthread (annoyingly my reply function doesn’t work).

@AyrshireTryer I suppose I didn't think the gulf would be so huge between a leafy village outstanding state primary and a private prep. The village primary is as good as it gets and it's still not really ok. 30 kids in a class is too many no matter how you look at it. The social and emotional development of the kids is better in a smaller class. The prep kids having access to significantly more sport/PE means there wasn't an overweight one among them. The food is better quality by miles. Most of the teachers at the prep are ex-state teachers who had enough and felt they couldn't deliver the curriculum in a meaningful way with the levels of under supported SEN kids.

I think it’s more that some people don’t place any value on something which is free (at the point of use). It’s the same with the NHS.

There are vast numbers of people who don’t realise how lucky we are in this country to have a “free” health and education system. It should be appreciated and respected more than it is, as it was when it was first introduced.

Children should be brought up to value their education and grab every opportunity. Instead, there are too many parents moaning about their child being expected to wear the correct uniform for example. Children and adults should recognise that everyone has responsibilities as well as rights.