To think asking a teacher how many passed GCSEs isn’t rude?

[Indoorvoicesbluey]

Dd15 is currently sitting mock GCSEs and is anxious about her future as everyone is atm.

she asked her English teacher how many of her students passed their GCSEs and she was told to stay behind class and was told off for asking it as the teacher found it rude and disrespectful. She said she didn’t mean it to be rude she was genuinely wondering.

I agree! I'm a teacher & one of the main things students want to know re. important exams etc is how previous years have done - they're anxious, seeking reassurances that the exams are 'pass-able' & that the odds are good as long as they put in the work, ie, "most people pass every year, guys - you'll be fine!" etc. - I'd in no way take this as an insult UNLESS it was said with a tone & inference that clearly meant it as such.

I would have kept her back too. Horribly rude. I can guarantee she told you she asked it politely (though it’s really not a polite question) but actually was being a little madam. Sorry, OP, she needed a telling off, preferably from you too!

We have our department gcse results on the wall. If a child, even if being cheeky and trying to imply I was a crap teacher, questioned me about my own classes I would just say x many....the ones who did all the work I set! Or something like that. Not sure I'd make a mountain out of it. Sounds like the teacher is feeling a bit sensitive, maybe they did get crap results compared to other colleagues and are under pressure from above about it.

WonderingWanda
My approach to general discussion is always similar:
Nationally this is the overview of how grades are awarded, you're getting lots of feedback on what you need to do to make progress, and I find that the students who put the work in do well. The exams are designed for you to show what you know and examiners are human.

This depends entirely on the tone of the question

It’s a sensible question to ask that can affect the way your DD uses the feedback she gets in class. GCSEs are high stakes for kids. Success or failure can alter the path of their lives. To be so dismissive of a student’s desire to understand the educational situation they’re learning in is arrogant and something they can only get away with where students are treated with a degree of contempt.

In a school situation, obviously DD doesn’t get to pick and choose who is teaching her, but she can use information about her teachers’ track record to influence the way she assess the feedback she’s given. For instance, if the teacher doesn’t have a good track record (compared to the school’s average success rate) on getting students through GCSEs, DD should not trust good grades the teacher gives her. She should look for other sources of assessment. If the teacher has a good track record, it makes more sense to rely more closely on what they say about how well you’re doing and what you need to do to succeed.

If she wanted to ask a decent question, she should have asked how many took GCSE with this teacher, what about other teachers teaching English, how many passed, what was the predicted grade of these pupils and how did it vary between groups, what was the average value added, was there a difference between the groups of pupils, how long were the pupils being taught by this teacher, what socio economic factors were there between groups.

Looking at 1 teacher and asking how many passed does not tell you how effective that teacher was. Because it's a complicated situation with many variables to look at.

Really she should have asked what did those pupils who passed do have in common, compared to those who did less well - but even that's a complex question.

She's about 15!

How many pass is different to how many of your pupils passed.
A good question for A Level is :

How many pupils with a 6 / 7/ 8 / 9 in Physics achieved B or above at A-Level?

But that's complex as pupils who struggle might drop out during A-Levels so you have survivor bias in exams.

(Or their school does not allow them to take A-Levels so the pass rate is artificially high so it looks good to people. Not saying certain schools would ever do this)

(More or Less would have a field day with this question and how to interpret the answer)

And that's why the question and answer is meaningless.

The teacher should have given that as her response.

That's also the answer a teacher should give to a Headteacher when asked why their pass rate was 50% compared to another teacher who had a pass rate of 60%.

For instance, if the teacher doesn’t have a good track record (compared to the school’s average success rate) on getting students through GCSEs, DD should not trust good grades the teacher gives her

Track record? Just like the child doesn't get to choose the teacher, the teacher often gets no say in the classes they teach and this teacher may have had low ability sets. I've had years where all the kids have passed because they worked hard and had the ability and I've had years where no kids have passed due to their ability and /or lack of effort. I am the same teacher.
Follow the news every August.... good results.... exams are getting easier. Bad results... it's the fault of the teachers.

I know 1 teacher who got criticised for a pass rate of 66%.

3 people took the GCSE and 2 passed.
But the data does not lie........

BBC Radio 4 - More or Less

Statistics like this played a part in my decision to leave teaching. You can't win. You're always compared to the previous year or whatever. There is no thought in those statistics that the kids who don't pass had other things going on in their life, a sick parent or extreme poverty. But the tests that they did when they were 11 indicated that they should be getting top grades.
Teens have grown up with being bombarded by statistics and the teen in the OP could well have been asking a genuine question, or it could have been extremely rude. Like I said in a previous post, it's all about the tone in which it was asked.

I think it's quite weird that people would think this was a weird question.

Anyway most schools publish tables with the numbers of people who took each exam subject and the numbers who got each grade. The data is publicly available.

The teacher could say "we don't break it down by teacher or class, but you can see last year's stats on our website" and moved on.

Of course we don't know the context of the question and it may have followed a discussion which meant the teacher found it rude. But on its own, the question sounds perfectly fine.

My dd is abit of a goody two shoes at school, never in trouble and always one of the higher achievement point students. I genuinely don’t think she would have asked it in a rude manner.

If the teacher is qualified, she is qualified to teach GCSE - she might be less experienced but she will be qualified unless her qualification is for Primary teaching

even if she had a primary qualification she's still qualified. There are no conversion courses for staff who want to switch between primary/secondary. I am secondary trained but teach part of my timetable in the primary school so I am literally teaching preschool through to A level this year! I wouldn't recommend it, however, it is quite taxing to manage the different levels successfully.

OP, I’m a teacher and when I started my career in a really tough inner London school, my other newly qualified colleagues and I would pray for the lower sets or the ones with several outrageously disruptive pupils (think the ones who tell you to fuck off) over classes of goodies as you say. I got a year 10 set 1 in my first year and they probably didn’t get many detentions for obviously poor behaviour but they’d regularly drive me to tears in the staffroom due to their manipulation. I was a good teacher with decent classroom management too but they made me feel so awful. I can laugh now but there were definitely times I felt like jacking it in to go and earn more money in another sector. Not saying your daughter is the same but just pointing out my experience of higher achieving pupils to anyone reading this who thinks they have a high achieving pupil who is a joy to teach.

I think it's quite weird that people would think this was a weird question
I don't think it's weird to think it's a weird question.
Of all the questions I've been asked by students about grades and boundaries, wanting to know what my class the previous year got isn't one that comes up regularly.

Where my colleagues who've experienced this it has often been done in a targeted way where a student/students claim they're "just wondering", "just curious" etc. In reality they're often trying to work out how quickly they can start the "if we don't do well in our mocks can we blame the teacher for being rubbish" game.

I've had many conversations with students about grades, grade boundaries, exam mark schemes, feedback exam boards give to school, information in exam reports about national trends/things the board like/things they don't, school performance, national performances, the importance of feedback.

I have never shared what my previous cohorts have attained with current cohorts. It's irrelevant. They are a different class, different students, sitting a different paper in a different national cohort.
I'm also not willing to be the annoying teacher who sets their colleagues up for "why won't you tell us, Mrs Smiles told her class..." and then the parental speculation about my colleagues.

What matters is that the student works hard in class, listens to feedback, revises, and asks for help where they need it.

I can totally see my daughter doing this without meaning any offence at all! It’s such a stressful time for them. Haven’t read the whole thread, but I don’t think it’s rude at all unless asked in a cheeky way (and it doesn’t sound as if it was). No one would find it odd if you asked a driving instructor their pass rate! Schools are constantly judged on their pass rates at GCSE and a level after all. Teacher feeling a bit insecure?

Of all the questions I've been asked by students about grades and boundaries, wanting to know what my class the previous year got isn't one that comes up regularly

Well I am pretty sure it was volunteered in my school - so you didn't even have to ask. As I said, not per class, but certainly per cohort/year group.

And my son's school definitely volunteered the grade boundaries.

TBF though - you are likely to have had 1 person teach you to drive. So they are the main ones teaching you and who have taught you that skill.

A pupil will have had many teachers over the years at primary and secondary school.

All about the variables.

Well I am pretty sure it was volunteered in my school - so you didn't even have to ask. As I said, not per class, but certainly per cohort/year group.

And my son's school definitely volunteered the grade boundaries. Edited

I'm not sure what your point is here. The OP's child chose to ask a teacher about their teacher's previous group's outcomes, not the cohort (which many schools have available).

The thread is about questions students ask, which is why I said out of all the questions I get asked on various GCSE topics, students wanting me to tell them my last group's results is not a common question.

Has anyone said that schools shouldn't volunteer grade boundaries? It's quite common but we still get questions about it which is understandable (what's less understandable is how many threads on here have posters arguing about their child's mock exam results/predicted grades being wrong because parent has decided the boundaries are wrong).

My experience is that my exam groups are more concerned with understanding the content, mark scheme, exam reports and my feedback to them to be concerned about what previous students got in an exam that the current cohort won't sit. That's probably why they do well though.

My experience is that my exam groups are more concerned with understanding the content, mark scheme, exam reports and my feedback to them to be concerned about what previous students got in an exam that the current cohort won't sit. That's probably why they do well though

The one doesn't cancel out the other.

As for the exam the current cohort won't sit, they probably will, as a mock, or as practice questions. That's what I did, and it's what my ds did.

As for the exam the current cohort won't sit, they probably will, as a mock, or as practice questions. That's what I did, and it's what my ds did.

Yes, but sitting a mock exam is nothing like sitting the actual exam (which is then marked and graded externally with grade boundaries decided based on the performance of the national cohort).

Say I taught 3 classes in 3 years.
Group 3 in 2023 got X% 9-4
Group 2 in 2022 got X% 9-4
Group 1 in 2021 got X% 9-4

Telling group 4 in 2024 what group 1/2/3 got is meaningless for group 4 because:

• each class in groups 1/2/3 is different
• each class in groups 1/2/3 are different sizes so one student substantially affects the overall % in a smaller class
• each class had different target grades
• what good progress looks like will vary for each of those classes. Two groups could have the same 9-4 % but one group has made excellent progress and another has made poor progress

Unless someone knows the prior attainment of the classes, the context of the classes and what level of progress would be classed as good progress for the class, knowing Mr Blogg's class got 80% 9-4 but Miss Wright got 60% 9-4 is meaningless.

Mr Blogg might have 80% 9-4, but most are grades 4/5, when based on KS2 data expected progress would be 80% 9-6.
Miss Wright might have 60% 9-4, and most of her class had a target grade of 2s and 3s so her class has made good progress.

The student/parent who is too busy fixating about what Mr Blogg and Miss Wright's groups got last year instead of working hard and acting on feedback lack all the required knowledge to draw meaningful conclusions from the number given.

So it begs the question why are some students/parents obsessed with gaining class or teacher level information?