Page 15 | To ask what the country was like under a Labour government?

user6776 · 2023-11-13T20:14:59+00:00

I'm too young to remember a proper Labour government. I was 12 when the Tories got voted in back in 2010 so that's all I've ever really known. How much better was it than it is now? Why did Labour lose the election back then anyway? Interested to hear people's opinions.

Username2864 · 14/11/2023 10:18

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 14/11/2023 10:15

As i made very clear I wasn't talking about his academic attainment level but his attitude to knowledge. That's sort of the whole point - what we're seeing in terms of a decline in political intelligence isn't a result of a push to more diverse educational representation in politics (the vast majority are still private/grammar and Oxbridge/Russell Group anyway, in the case of Labour possibly even more so than previously). It's a dumbing down of politics itself, and it spans backgrounds. You're just as likely (i.e. not very) to find someone politically impressive from a working class or a privileged background working in the political sphere, which is why I mentioned Mick Lynch who say what you may about his views is well-informed, sharp as a tack and fiendish verbally. But generally speaking the standard has declined.

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His attitude to knowledge is one I would suggest came from his childhood, upbringing and earlier political beliefs, at a guess. Having a negative attitude to learning and self improvement is not a core value for a Tory. I'm very confused by the Tory party would have him so senior id suspect espionage on behalf of Labour at this point (I jest).

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 14/11/2023 10:19

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 14/11/2023 10:18

This is exactly what I mean. They more or less talk for a living. So it would be reasonable, I think, to expect them to be good at that, to give the impression of basic comprehension skills, the ability to assimilate their portfolio enough that they don't sound like they're reading notes off the back of their hand, the total inability to give a reasonably convincing answer to an easily anticipatable question. That isn't a question of academic privilege, or even expertise, it's basic with and a little bit of work.

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basic wit*

Username2864 · 14/11/2023 10:20

VictoriaPlummm · 14/11/2023 10:16

Since the Tories took over we've seen a massive comeback of Victorian illnesses like rickets, scurvy, TB etc. Most of which can be traced back to poverty, malnutrition, poor living conditions / homelessness etc.
I never saw kids with bandy legs back in the 90s / 2000s. See them all the time now.

Equally we are living in the age of the crunchy mum where vaccinations are seen as evil and raw milk seen as a healthy lifestyle choice.

Peablockfeathers · 14/11/2023 10:20

Can't compare anyway, today's Labour party is nothing like it's roots. There's a lot of rose tinted glasses when things weren't perfect. That said can anyone be worse than the current shitshow?

PomPomChatton · 14/11/2023 10:23

It felt good to have money being spent in the public sector, but deep down we probably knew it was an illusion. Much of it was 'spin' and debt. But right now I could do with some illusion that things are getting better. We need some hope.

Peablockfeathers · 14/11/2023 10:23

VictoriaPlummm · 14/11/2023 10:16

Since the Tories took over we've seen a massive comeback of Victorian illnesses like rickets, scurvy, TB etc. Most of which can be traced back to poverty, malnutrition, poor living conditions / homelessness etc.
I never saw kids with bandy legs back in the 90s / 2000s. See them all the time now.

'All of the time', really? I am appalled at the cuts to essential children's services etc but there are other factors that influence children's health on a population level. Vaccine hesitancy spurred on by the dawn of social media, immigration from countries without vaccination schedules etc. It's not the case that no children were living in poverty back then either, I was. I'm heartbroken that we haven't moved on as a society since then and that more and more are suffering today, but let's not make out it was all peachy.

Cattenberg · 14/11/2023 10:25

user1497207191 · 14/11/2023 10:13

@herewegoroundthebastardbush

They are so manifestly not up to the task of answering basic questions about their own policies and supposed areas of expertise. Which leaves one wondering what exactly they are up to the task of.

Realistically, most Ministers are only figureheads of their department and don't really know too much about their subject. The real detail and work is done behind the scenes by the permanent civil servants. Even supposedly "brilliant" Ministers like Brown didn't really have too much of a grasp on the detail of his financial/economic policies and rely on the senior civil servants.

I know that for some annual Budgets, the Chancellors at the time simply asked their permanent secretary for a list of "options" that they could announce. The civil servants then present a range of policy changes and the Chancellor would pick them like a shopping list. That's why so many times it happens that different policies contradict each other in terms of aim, impact, etc. Ministers rarely think up their own policies.

What is the point of government ministers, then? Have we tried scrapping them and letting doctors, nurses, teachers, headteachers etc. do the jobs they are qualified to do (whilst being supervised in-house), without frequent interference by someone in Whitehall who doesn’t understand the profession?

I find it really bizarre that the Minister for Education can be someone who has never even attended a state school, let alone taught in one, or managed one.

VictoriaPlummm · 14/11/2023 10:26

Ballsbaill · 14/11/2023 10:17

Underfunding of the NHS is bollocks.Chronic underfunding in fact healthcare now represents 40% of all government spending. An additional £ 12 billion was agreed on top of the planned increase in financial support. At this rate, the NHS will represent 50% of all government expenditure. The reality is that additional funding will either have to come from an increase in direct taxation, on top of the cost of living crisis, or taken from elsewhere. Where do you suggest; UC, Education or Defence?

If the NHS stopped pissing money up the wall on managers and useless roles £100k for a lived experience manager... it would have more money for patient care.

Back in labour days, when Brown brought us slap bang into the European average, productivity declined - and the only discernible change was a massive pay rise for NHS staff. (Also “chronically and historically underpaid” according to them).

You could cram the entire GDP into the maw of the NHS and it would still demand more and screech about underfunding - even (as now) with the consultants’ car park full of Jags and Mercs.

The NHS doesn’t even do irony well.

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THIS. If your mate was caught up in a relationship like the one the UK public has with the NHS, you'd call it abusive and tell them to LTB.

Limth · 14/11/2023 10:26

Loads of free money around.

Hbh17 · 14/11/2023 10:27

Pretty much the same as it is now. People complained & (wrongly) expected the Government to sort out their lives for them. We have very moderate, centrist Governments in the UK, so it doesn't make much difference who is in power.

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 14/11/2023 10:30

Username2864 · 14/11/2023 10:18

His attitude to knowledge is one I would suggest came from his childhood, upbringing and earlier political beliefs, at a guess. Having a negative attitude to learning and self improvement is not a core value for a Tory. I'm very confused by the Tory party would have him so senior id suspect espionage on behalf of Labour at this point (I jest).

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But why do you keep ignoring my comparison to Mick Lynch, whi comes from a very similar background, left shcool at 16, and is definitely not thick by any measure?

user1497207191 · 14/11/2023 10:31

Username2864 · 14/11/2023 10:20

Equally we are living in the age of the crunchy mum where vaccinations are seen as evil and raw milk seen as a healthy lifestyle choice.

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Not to mention immigrants coming from countries where such illnesses were common and vaccinations rare! One of the biggest TB outbreaks was almost entirely within an immigrant community.

TooManyPlatesInMotion · 14/11/2023 10:31

Not perfect by a long shot. But better, overall.

user1497207191 · 14/11/2023 10:32

Limth · 14/11/2023 10:26

Loads of free money around.

Yes, financed by debt, and with very little control. It was like a child running around with his mother's credit card!

BIossomtoes · 14/11/2023 10:33

Hbh17 · 14/11/2023 10:27

Pretty much the same as it is now. People complained & (wrongly) expected the Government to sort out their lives for them. We have very moderate, centrist Governments in the UK, so it doesn't make much difference who is in power.

Only someone who wasn’t there would say that. It couldn’t have been more different. We had grown ups in government who put the country’s interests first. There’s nothing moderate about the shitshow of the last few years.

BIossomtoes · 14/11/2023 10:33

user1497207191 · 14/11/2023 10:32

Yes, financed by debt, and with very little control. It was like a child running around with his mother's credit card!

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Not really.

To ask what the country was like under a Labour government?

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 14/11/2023 10:34

Username2864 · 14/11/2023 10:18

His attitude to knowledge is one I would suggest came from his childhood, upbringing and earlier political beliefs, at a guess. Having a negative attitude to learning and self improvement is not a core value for a Tory. I'm very confused by the Tory party would have him so senior id suspect espionage on behalf of Labour at this point (I jest).

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Oh and the reason the Tory party have made him so senior is because they believe this makes them palatable to the hard right who used to vote for UKIP/BNP. That is also Suella's angle on her recent behaviour - she doesn't care about being booted from the home office, she's got her eyes on leader of the party and thinks nationalist populism with a smatter of fascism is what will get her there. And what's concerning is she's probably not wrong.

user1497207191 · 14/11/2023 10:35

BIossomtoes · 14/11/2023 10:33

Only someone who wasn’t there would say that. It couldn’t have been more different. We had grown ups in government who put the country’s interests first. There’s nothing moderate about the shitshow of the last few years.

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What, like Peter Mandelson??

BloodyHellKen · 14/11/2023 10:35

VictoriaPlummm · 14/11/2023 10:16

Since the Tories took over we've seen a massive comeback of Victorian illnesses like rickets, scurvy, TB etc. Most of which can be traced back to poverty, malnutrition, poor living conditions / homelessness etc.
I never saw kids with bandy legs back in the 90s / 2000s. See them all the time now.

I really don't think you can blame the govt for lack of vitamin D (rickets), Lack of vitamin C (scurvy) or TB (successfully eradicated in he UK due to vaccines and now on the increase due to immigration from India/Pakistan.

Vitamin D is free - it's from the sun from march - September. Rest of the year supplements are very cheap
Vitamin C is cheap and easy to get in oranges.
TB - I do agree that this vaccination need to be brought back after it was stopped about 10 years ago.

I never saw kids with bandy legs back in the 90s / 2000s. See them all the time now. This is complete manure 😂

Username2864 · 14/11/2023 10:36

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 14/11/2023 10:34

Oh and the reason the Tory party have made him so senior is because they believe this makes them palatable to the hard right who used to vote for UKIP/BNP. That is also Suella's angle on her recent behaviour - she doesn't care about being booted from the home office, she's got her eyes on leader of the party and thinks nationalist populism with a smatter of fascism is what will get her there. And what's concerning is she's probably not wrong.

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You can see from the recent Palestine marches the left and right have become so extreme they're now sharing values. Extremism is on the rise and whatever colour you vote for this needs to be something to be mindful of.

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 14/11/2023 10:37

BloodyHellKen · 14/11/2023 10:35

I really don't think you can blame the govt for lack of vitamin D (rickets), Lack of vitamin C (scurvy) or TB (successfully eradicated in he UK due to vaccines and now on the increase due to immigration from India/Pakistan.

Vitamin D is free - it's from the sun from march - September. Rest of the year supplements are very cheap
Vitamin C is cheap and easy to get in oranges.
TB - I do agree that this vaccination need to be brought back after it was stopped about 10 years ago.

I never saw kids with bandy legs back in the 90s / 2000s. See them all the time now. This is complete manure 😂

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So there's definitely not and never has been any correlation between these diseases of malnutrition and, you know, poverty? At all?

VictoriaPlummm · 14/11/2023 10:39

Peablockfeathers · 14/11/2023 10:23

'All of the time', really? I am appalled at the cuts to essential children's services etc but there are other factors that influence children's health on a population level. Vaccine hesitancy spurred on by the dawn of social media, immigration from countries without vaccination schedules etc. It's not the case that no children were living in poverty back then either, I was. I'm heartbroken that we haven't moved on as a society since then and that more and more are suffering today, but let's not make out it was all peachy.

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I do see them all the time now. I remarked to my partner a few weeks ago, whats with all the bandy-legged kids?
I live in an area where there is alot of poverty, most kids live below the breadline, going to food banks is the weekly shop for most of their families. And we have three high schools and four primaries locally, thats alot of kids to cross paths with on a daily basis.
I'm just saying what I see 🤷🏻‍♀️
The old days wernt perfect, I grew up in poverty myself, but in the old days all kids were entitled to a pint of milk a day, funded by local govt. These days you have to be on less than about 9k a year to qualify for that.

WestwardHo1 · 14/11/2023 10:39

Nonamesleft1 · 13/11/2023 20:18

Labour started the process of privatising the nhs. Very sneaky by the back door, trying to get staff to set up “social enterprises” and PFI buildings etc.

But for actual every day "life"?

I was 22 when Labour got to power OP. Even under the Major government I has my tuition fees paid for and a small maintenance grant at university for my undergrad degree. I was then able to do a PGCE, fees paid, under Labour. I got a job teaching - there was plenty of funding for my professional development and for paying for proper supply teachers to cover those days. Friends having babies were supported by Sure Start and child trust funds. Yes you'd wait in A&E but not for days at a time. There was a nicer more positive vibe. People felt safer. You'd be able to get an ambulance, police officer if you called 999. Things generally worked and it felt as though grownups were in charge - I think there was more trust in the competence of politicians. People like Mo Mowlam, Robin Cook, Gordon Brown, David Blunkett.

Perhaps this was because we weren't governed by social media like we are now

Ballsbaill · 14/11/2023 10:40

BIossomtoes · 14/11/2023 10:33

Only someone who wasn’t there would say that. It couldn’t have been more different. We had grown ups in government who put the country’s interests first. There’s nothing moderate about the shitshow of the last few years.

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They put the UKs interests first when they squandered billions on war in Iraq for weapons of mass destruction that never existed?

LakieLady · 14/11/2023 10:41

I worked in homelessness prevention and resettlement from 2007-2017 (with a 2 year secondment to welfare rights work 2013-15).

In the first few years, it was relatively easy to get help for people: there was support for addictions, deposit/rent in advance loan schemes, private rentals were affordable to people on benefits, grants from DWP for essentials for people moving into a home for the first time etc. And people on benefits could actually live on the amount of money they got, when they had support with budgetting etc. I still see former clients who've managed to keep their lives together and a roof over their heads, some are positively thriving.

It gradually got harder and harder. As incomes failed to keep pace with inflation, especially rent inflation, even very experienced workers couldn't come up with budget plans that enabled tenants to live and pay their rent. And it became much more difficult to access mental health support and support with other social problems. People with long term psychosis who used to see a CPN every week were lucky if they saw them as much as once a month.

The project I worked on had 110 staff when it started. Funding has been cut so drastically that it now has 30 staff, and turns away more referrals than they accept. We used to be able to work with a client for up to 2 years, now the max is 3 months. You can't do life-changing work with complex cases in 3 months.

All they can do now is fire-fighting.