To ask what the country was like under a Labour government?

[user6776]

I'm too young to remember a proper Labour government. I was 12 when the Tories got voted in back in 2010 so that's all I've ever really known.

How much better was it than it is now? Why did Labour lose the election back then anyway?

Interested to hear people's opinions.

Applying Academic intelligence and common sense aren't the same thing. I've met some incredibly academically intelligent individuals but have no scope for independent and critical thinking.

😂
Implying only privately educated people are intelligent articulate speakers isn't a good look @Username2864 !!

The NHS was in a parlous state long before the pandemic. in a way it's astonishing it's coped as well as it has.

Once the country was in massive debt in 2010 money had to be saved somewhere OP.

Given most private and grammar schools teach debating and public speaking skills - which comprehensive schools typically don't - I think it's a fair stereotype to put out there. Yes there are exceptions to this there are always exceptions. But people pay the fees not just for the certificates but for the extra curriculars that give their kids the confidence needed to be leaders

The point I'm making is that these days politicans seem to rarely have the power to do either. And education aside, the least you'd expect of most politicians (who by and large talk for a living) is that they'd be reasonably verbally limber and persuasive in debate. You listen to some of these chumps on the radio these days malaproping and sound-biting and bumbling along and you want to stick them in an armchair with a biscuit and a cup of milky bovril. They are so manifestly not up to the task of answering basic questions about their own policies and supposed areas of expertise. Which leaves one wondering what exactly they are up to the task of.

That sounds more like the parties aren't media training their candidates properly. A lot of MPs come from legal backgrounds or industries where they have to talk and get their point across in a clear concise manner.

That's' very true. I qualified as a nurse in 1989 and worked in the NHS until 1997. Common complaints during that time:

• too many managers and not enough clinical staff
• patients on trolleys in corridors waiting for beds
• health tourism
• bed blockers as lack of social care
• cancelled operations
• waiting lists
• people with social issues taking up bed/staff time - drunks, drugs etc

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

Labour were a long way from perfect. I recall the early noughties as a time where there was some hope.

Sure start and tax credits helped me and my children stay afloat and move on to better things in a positive way. There did seem to be some ambition and investment in schools and communities. If felt that the UK was trying to move forward.

This Conservative government is a disgrace, we are the laughing stock of Europe and the world I am sure for voting in such a bunch of , over privileged, racist and unpleasant assholes. You couldn't make it up. We do need a change now.

Most are still privately educated, Russell group graduates. I’m actually astonished at the recent flow of low calibre politicians that are the products of Eton and Oxbridge. Even though Oxbridge still sits at the top of the tables I honestly think their PPE courses should be investigated because of the poor quality of their graduates.

There was an economic boom, followed by the Iraq war and a global recession. Labour implemented social policies while the conservatives promote independence.

I don't completely agree with you (as an articulate, intelligent state educated person with 2 excellent degrees) but I can see where you're coming from as our youngest is at a private school.

I mean what about Lee Anderson. He isn't just 'not intellectual', or 'uneducated', or 'lacking in the confidence that would be imbued by public schooling' (if anything the man is overconfident). What he is is thick - uninformed, uninterested in becoming informed, opinionated without depth, blustering and agressive when questioned or challenged. The man's an idiot. And he's deputy chairman of the Tory party (or he was last I looked, obviously things have changed since then).

You set him against someone like Mick Lynch, of a similar if not more disadvantaged background, and it's like looking at an earthworm vs a cat. It's a different league. This isn't about intellectualism (although again I see nothing wrong with wanting our elected representatives and certainly our government ministers being reasonably quick-witted and well-educated), it's about basic capabilities for politics, and compared to previous they are lacking now across the poltical board, and this spans the full gamut of privilege.

This is the must succinct and one of the most accurate comments I've read on this thread.

I won't disagree with you about the state of graduates. Any employer can tell you how awful a lot now are in general these days.

The NHS was struggling well before the pandemic, due to years of underfunding. And when the Tories claimed to be investing money in it, it was usually smoke and mirrors. For example, they cut social care funding to the bone, which is costing the NHS a fortune due to bed-blocking.

Also, I remember Theresa May announcing, to great fanfare, that there would be an increase in funding for mental health services. But it turned out that the government wasn’t paying for this - instead, the NHS was supposed to find the money from within its existing budget!

I mean what about Lee Anderson. He isn't just 'not intellectual', or 'uneducated', or 'lacking in the confidence that would be imbued by public schooling' (if anything the man is overconfident). What he is is thick - uninformed, uninterested in becoming informed, opinionated without depth, blustering and agressive when questioned or challenged. The man's an idiot. And he's deputy chairman of the Tory party (or he was last I looked, obviously things have changed since then).

this man (according to his wiki page) is an ex coal miner and ex labour councillor who is/was a staunch supporter of Scargill. He's got to have some kind of issues to have gone from that far left to being a Tory MP. Equally he doesn't appear to have an education past school, so yes, he is poorly educated and "thick".

Sounds like your experience was also under the Tories for the most part. My whole family have been in the NHS forever (I bucked the trend after a couple of brief stints, first as an NHS receptionist and later as a hospital trust library manager, and fled to HE :P) and it is universally agreed that at least on the ground (PFI rumbling away in the background) things got a lot better in terms of patient care during the labour years (and this is pretty well borne out by the data).

It’s interesting how different experiences can be. I was also a disabled student and parent at the time (not a single parent though, but a very low income family at the time). As I was at uni and was getting Student Finance I didn’t get tax credits or anything, but I definitely felt I benefited from the “safety net” that PPs have mentioned.

I also didn’t have any NHS wait time at all - I could literally call my consultant’s secretary and see him the same day if needed. What area are you based in?

I agree about DLA though - I was rejected for that. I haven’t tried again for PIP and didn’t know that the criteria had changed, so will look into that!

@herewegoroundthebastardbush

They are so manifestly not up to the task of answering basic questions about their own policies and supposed areas of expertise. Which leaves one wondering what exactly they are up to the task of.

Realistically, most Ministers are only figureheads of their department and don't really know too much about their subject. The real detail and work is done behind the scenes by the permanent civil servants. Even supposedly "brilliant" Ministers like Brown didn't really have too much of a grasp on the detail of his financial/economic policies and rely on the senior civil servants.

I know that for some annual Budgets, the Chancellors at the time simply asked their permanent secretary for a list of "options" that they could announce. The civil servants then present a range of policy changes and the Chancellor would pick them like a shopping list. That's why so many times it happens that different policies contradict each other in terms of aim, impact, etc. Ministers rarely think up their own policies.

As i made very clear I wasn't talking about his academic attainment level but his attitude to knowledge. That's sort of the whole point - what we're seeing in terms of a decline in political intelligence isn't a result of a push to more diverse educational representation in politics (the vast majority are still private/grammar and Oxbridge/Russell Group anyway, in the case of Labour possibly even more so than previously). It's a dumbing down of politics itself, and it spans backgrounds. You're just as likely (i.e. not very) to find someone politically impressive from a working class or a privileged background working in the political sphere, which is why I mentioned Mick Lynch who say what you may about his views is well-informed, sharp as a tack and fiendish verbally. But generally speaking the standard has declined.

Since the Tories took over we've seen a massive comeback of Victorian illnesses like rickets, scurvy, TB etc. Most of which can be traced back to poverty, malnutrition, poor living conditions / homelessness etc.
I never saw kids with bandy legs back in the 90s / 2000s. See them all the time now.

Underfunding of the NHS is bollocks.Chronic underfunding in fact healthcare now represents 40% of all government spending. An additional £ 12 billion was agreed on top of the planned increase in financial support. At this rate, the NHS will represent 50% of all government expenditure. The reality is that additional funding will either have to come from an increase in direct taxation, on top of the cost of living crisis, or taken from elsewhere. Where do you suggest; UC, Education or Defence?

If the NHS stopped pissing money up the wall on managers and useless roles £100k for a lived experience manager... it would have more money for patient care.

Back in labour days, when Brown brought us slap bang into the European average, productivity declined - and the only discernible change was a massive pay rise for NHS staff. (Also “chronically and historically underpaid” according to them).

You could cram the entire GDP into the maw of the NHS and it would still demand more and screech about underfunding - even (as now) with the consultants’ car park full of Jags and Mercs.

The NHS doesn’t even do irony well.

This is exactly what I mean. They more or less talk for a living. So it would be reasonable, I think, to expect them to be good at that, to give the impression of basic comprehension skills, the ability to assimilate their portfolio enough that they don't sound like they're reading notes off the back of their hand, the total inability to give a reasonably convincing answer to an easily anticipatable question. That isn't a question of academic privilege, or even expertise, it's basic with and a little bit of work.

Nope, my mother in law and father both died in Labour's NHS after a series of blunders and delays. My father needed an operation for cancer which took 18 months between diagnosis and operation - the "target" for the operation was, I think, 18 weeks at that time! His op kept getting cancelled and when the deadline was looming, he kept being moved to a different hospital/different consultant so the clock would re-start, so they didn't breach the waiting list targets. He died a couple of weeks after they finally operated because it was too late and he was too weak to survive it!! It was criminal the way they messed him around. My MIL died after a hip operation because they didn't administer her diabetic drugs - she kept telling them she needed her drugs, but they ignored her and it was the start of a rapid deterioration. All Labour's smoke and mirrors!