Not to sit Shiva for Dad? Sorry this is a bit Jewish!

[DistrictAndCircle]

My Dad may die soon. He is a secular Jew. I am an even more secular Jew.

When he dies there will be an expectation that we sit Shiva for him. For those who don’t know - this means prayers every night for a week, at his house, with my sister, his siblings and his wife (who isn’t my mum). Friends and family attend, there’s a bit of food, the Rabbi comes etc. It’s meant to send him on his way and be a comfort to the mourners.

This is a big deal even for the most secular Jews.

But I don’t want to do it! It is genuinely stressing me out, and I fear it will make my grief quite a bit worse. It wouldn’t be a comfort to me in the least. It would be the exact opposite.

Dad lives 3hrs drive away. I don’t want to stay at his wife’s house, or in a hotel, for a week. I don’t want to say prayers in a language I don’t know, to a God I don’t believe in, in a room full of strangers and long-lost relatives who I’ve no real wish to re-find. I don’t even want to do it for a day let alone a week.

I want to be in my own house, with my own family, grieving in my own way, whatever that turns out to be. To be honest forcing me to be away from my spouse and kids doing that seems cruel to me. Yet I know it would be seen as unbelievably disrespectful to not do it, and possibly people will think I’m trying to make a point about religion or make it ‘all about me’ etc when actually I just want to be left alone to choose.

I don’t want to disrespect my dad. We’re not particularly close but he’s a decent guy. But… he’ll be dead! So does it matter?! I am much less close to his wife but don’t want to upset her. I suspect this would though. Not for any logical reason. Nobody actually believes in it. It would upset her just because it’s not the done thing and would be a talking point.

Perhaps this is more pertinent to the Jewish contingent but I’d value anyone’s views on whether I’d be being unreasonable to opt out, or whether I should suck it up for the sake of not upsetting people.

Yes they are and it’s never a problem, if it was there would certainly be grounds to claim discrimination. Remember that the funeral is usually the day after the death and then the first shiva is the night of the funeral. It’s always in the evening, usually 8pm so if people want to they can go to work or work from home. Often they will have visiting times during the week where people can come and see the mourners but they’ll say they’ve an open house at x hour to y hour. The whole thing is done and dusted in a week where most people in England haven’t even been given a date for a funeral

Assume you’re like me Op? A Jewish Atheist?

Don’t do it as you clearly don’t want to. I know people feel they need to respect the wishes of the dead, but it’s also emotional blackmail and forcing a practice that you don’t believe in. You also deserve respect and it’s fine to grieve you dad in your own way.

I'm Jewish and practicing; it's fairly hard for me to relate as I've personally always thought shiva is a really good way of dealing with grief but I can imagine that if you're not likely to know anyone and you've never practiced it could feel alienating and weird.

Personally in your position I'd go for at least one night so you'd be honouring his wishes but not taking yourself too far out of your comfort zone. Is there anyone at all who you might want to see who would come who you could coordinate with so you have that at least? Can you pin blame on work for not being able to stay longer? Or just be honest and say you find it really stressful because you don't know anyone, but if you say that while offering to come at least one night you're not making it a no, but a reasonable compromise for your mental health.

We only sat for one night for both my parents, it was nice to have their elderly friends come over (very small family ).

Most people do take around a week off work when a parent dies. Often they are responsible for making arrangements and many people are emotionally shocked even if the death was expected. They may also need to support their other parent if the parents ae still together, or vulnerable family members. OP, my sympathies, I would try to come to a compromise and do the first few days, I think you may feel better having done this in the long term even though it sounds as if it will be very difficult for you.

I don't envy you having to make this decision. For what it's worth, and I'm not Jewish, I wouldn't go at all. If you go for even just one day that's still very stressful, from now when you decide right to the day & for ever afterwards churning over what you did / didnt do. I'd just try & make peace with the fact that I couldn't face it, accept that, to some extent, that would really badly affect my equilibrium (mental health I suppose) and just nope I cannot do it. Easy for me to say tho!

I would just tell him sure and then not do it. He won’t know. Make sure your family don’t rope you into in afterwards. Develop Covid.

Speaking as a practicing Muslim who was fed up with my dad’s funeral being made into a series of rituals by relatives, meaning I had no time to say a proper goodbye.

I'm an atheist secular Jew.

Sitting shiva for my dad really helped me, although I don't think I recognised it at the time. I did it because that's what you do, because it was expected of me, blah blah... Those sorts of reasons. But being connected to such a significant rite of passage was really important in helping me process the grief and move on from being the daughter of a living father to someone who had experienced a loss. I'm not explaining myself well, but in those days I didn't know where to put my feelings and my grief. Shiva gave me a ritual to follow: this is what we do when we grieve. This is how we gather. This is how we honour. This is how we support.

When my (not Jewish) husband lost his dad I realised even further how important it is to have that structure at times when you feel lost and alone.

A Jewish friend of mine was in exactly this position recently and compromised by doing one or two nights. She had childcare responsibilities and a job and made a compelling case that the whole week wasn't possible. She was also worried about the family reaction but they seemed to accept it.

"Going for one or two days is obviously a potential compromise. I can see this happening. But I fear that I’ll find it very hard to leave without causing upset"

But it will cause you upset to stay for the whole week. You would already be making a big compromise by going for a night or two.

I'm not Jewish but I did lose my dad some time ago and, for practical reasons ended up staying with my mum (a few hours drive away from me) for a couple of weeks before and a week after he died. I left my kids and DH at home although they came for the funeral.
It was a time of huge emotional intensity, as friends from years gone by and family who we don't often see, visited to say goodbyes and for the funeral. It was a time for me, my mum and siblings to re-connect with others, support each other and share memories with people who loved Dad. It was very hard, as I was separated from my kids and it was right before Xmas but there was a sense of reunion with people from my past and my Dad's life which was never going to happen again. I'm so glad I was there.
I think sitting shiva could be a similar experience for you and I wouldn't be quick to discount the value of that.

Go for a couple of days, mention a lot on the second day about not feeling well. Very shivery all of a sudden etc. Leave at the end of the second day. Bad bout of Covid and sit out the rest - devastated you can't be there etc. Or cry off the whole thing with 'Covid'. It's not something where people will pressure you to just come anyway.

That's good that you found comfort in sitting shiva even though you are an atheist. It's hard to know what's the best thing to do without having gone through it. Grief is such a complicated feeling. When my much loved Dad died we arranged a direct-to-crem funeral which we didn't attend. We also had no service or memorial at all. The crematorium dealt with the ashes. For our family it was the right thing to do. None of us are religious or spiritual. We believe when you die you are no more. My siblings, children and my Mum are all glad that we did it like we did. We have no regrets at all. We can reminisce and chat about our Dad easily. Sometimes I wonder if it's easier to remember my Dad when he was alive because we sort of ignored the bit where he died.

My siblings, my Mum and I all want the same type of non-funeral. It's the cheapest option too.

Not Jewish sorry, but where I live visitors will start arriving at the house a couple of hours after someone has died and you're expected to make them tea and cater for them (although most people do bring stuff) it does last a good few days...I hate hate hate it but it carries you through OP, it serves the purpose it needs to serve. It's about support and feeling you've done everything the right way for your dad. The first week is so shit that sometimes the distraction of the random faces and the laughs and stories of the old days and just general weirdness helps you get through it.

Its really hard for people who dont have cultural or religious (or semi religious) expectations of certain events to give advice

Becuase most of us would say 'grieve as you need to' but is there going to be fall out from that decision which would be worse than the grief and distress of Shiva for you?

The most similar thing I can think of is all the threads on here (not involving death or religion) where people suggest you must stay over at family/hold xmas/see people on their birthdays etc in order to save something worse happening if that doesnt happen

On the other hand lots of people say dont do any of those things if you dont want to

I'm sorry you are losing your Dad, but please never be embarrassed about being Jewish, observant or not. Pps have some good suggestions for you and I hope you find something that works for you.

Think about what you’ll be happy with. Years from now, do you think you’d regret not doing it, even if you didn’t want to at the time? Or would you be at peace with not doing it?

FWIW I’m an atheist with a Catholic family, not sure what the English word is but they expected me to sit with my Mum’s body the night after she died and pray etc. I said no, mainly because it was the absolute last thing I wanted to do at that point. I have never regretted it because I don’t believe in any of it anyway.

Thanks for everyone’s advice and kind words. I have read them all, and will take on board what people have said. Plenty to think about.

Thank you all x

I don't think anyone can really advise what's best here, you need to do what's right for you, although if you can, I would at least try the first night after the funeral. Do you think it’s possible in the future you might regret having not gone? And what kind of impact might that have on your relationship with your family?

Like you, I'm atheist and secular and the Shiva makes me feel so far out my comfort zone that I just don't want to be present at it. The nosey 'long lost' relatives drive me round the bend at them (especially the not-so-secular ones who always have something to say about having a non-Jewish DH and kids). But having said that, Jewish funerals are pretty bleak and spartan affairs - and I don't agree with PP that it's something we do well - so the Shiva and rituals might bring a certain comfort that's missing from the funeral. You might not think it will now, but it may actually help with the rawness and grief when the time comes.

My mother in law died recently. She wasn't observant at all and neither is her son or daughter. We couldn't have the shiva at her house as it wasn't suitable to be have people there and we didn't want it in the space offered at a different shul to the one she was a nominal member of. In the end we did one night at her sister's, more for the benefit of those who couldn't come to the funeral. My husband found just one night very tiring as he had to then drive back home.

Everyone then got Covid as well which was fun when we started clearing the house.

My father in law dealt with the issue of sitting shiva by dying two days before Pesach meaning we just had to do one afternoon.

I am Jewish, as was my dad (and whole family for that matter). He wasn't particularly religious although he he is buried in a Jewish cemetery. We just sat shiva for one night for him, and IIRC, just two nights for my mum.

Do what suits you best, and what you feel is most appropriate. It is not for anyone else to judge you or even have an opinion.

I have rediscovered Judaism, and proudly observe any of the high holidays. However, have made it clear that when I die, I don't want anyone to sit shiva for me, or to be buried in a Jewish cemetery, I want to be cremated and scattered.

I wish you a long life.

@NoraLuka A Wake. Mr Monkey is an atheist but with an Irish Catholic background. He sat a wake for his dad the night he died. He wasn't sure he was going to do it as he and his dad did not have the best of relationships and he is not a believer However he found it a helpful thing to do in the end.

I'm Jewish and observant. It's definitely ok for shiva to be in multiple locations - it's not weird not to stay for the whole week if you're not super close. I once hosted an afternoon of shiva for a friend with a similar family situation whose father's house was very far from where she was currently living and she wanted to have the opportunity to have her own shiva with people meaningful to her. And even if you are sitting shiva but you are not religious, plenty of people sit shiva but without prayers and certainly no need for rabbis etc. The tradition of shiva is simply that you sit at home and people come to visit and comfort you, which usually means that you specify when visitors are welcome, and often people choose to get out some photos and share reminiscences with the visitors. And you're not supposed to need to "host" people - the opposite! The guests typically bring some biscuits, fruit or whatever.

Fine to sit out the prayers, and in most communities you won't even be really expected to participate if you're a woman ;)

All that is to say: you're not religious so you don't need to be bound by tradition! I think it would respect your father's wishes if you're able to do a night or two at his home. If it's any comfort, I found when I sat shiva that actually some of the potentially annoying people brought reminiscences that I was happy to hear. I was also glad to have shiva at my own house for a day (mine was in 2 locations) so I could invite "my people", because I really find shiva a fantastic tradition, even if only that it breaks the ice after a bereavement so that the next time you see people you can talk about something normal rather than being awkward. But that's just me, and you can decide what works for you.

For what it’s worth I found the week I sat with my 3 siblings around my mum’s bed when she was dying really comforting. We bonded in a way that we hadn’t before. Talked about our childhoods, our parents, laughed and cried. Don’t rule it out completely. It might give you some closure

I’m not Jewish but I am from a culture who observe similar traditions after a death. I think you should see how you feel when that awful time comes. I’m very loosely religious when my dad died that those traditions and rituals were quite comforting; I loved being around people who loved him too and I felt proud to be carrying out his last wishes. I also felt supported and safe to scream, cry or whatever. Don’t put pressure on yourself but if you go to at least one, you may see you could find it helpful.
Whatever you do, I hope it brings you some comfort and that your dads passing will Br as peaceful as it can.