We are not set up for electric vehicles in this country

[Pollyannaatemyjelly]

We have an electric vehicle. We tend not to do too many long journeys but today it was inevitable. We have visit a very popular destination via major motorways but there is not one fast charger available on our route. I've just stopped on the M5 on what is supposed to be a dual charger (so more than one vehicle can charge) but it's not working. I've had to wait 20 minutes for the vehicle next to me to charge before I can even begin to charge mine. There is no chance this county can become all electric when the infrastructure is so poor.

I’m surprised at this, we have been electric only family since 2016 and never had an issue. It was harder in the early days with lower range cars and a vastly inferior network but these days it’s a doddle. The only place I regularly found hard these days was the New Forest but even that improved this year. I visit my grandmother in a care home there and they now have a rapid in her street at the BP.

I have sometimes had to wait for a charger but that’s all. It’s not often I exceed 300 miles though, it definitely helps now I have more range and can use the Tesla chargers and we do plan routes well.

Actually Leicester is a bit shit for charging, I work there, but rarely charge. Even they have Instavolt though at McDonalds so I indulge in a quick fix while waiting.

Most of the housing estates are owned by housing associations now not councils Considering tenants have to struggle to get them to do even basic repairs can you see them putting charging points in.

The main problem in this country is that we do not have enough electricity to serve businesses, properties and cars
Our sub stations simply don’t have the capacity yet.
These need to be upgraded or added to first before we can go full throttle on all electric

You know those twats in charge. Honestly I know the government is inept but it’s as though people have forgotten they exist at all 🤣.

@Arbutusflower - if you read my message you will see someone else said they couldn’t find a second hand electric on car trader for less than £65k. I then said why would you even consider a second hand car for £65k when you could buy a brand new Tesla for half that. I did not recommend anyone spend £65k on a car.

Yes they are expensive new, but they are comparable to a new version of a similar sized car in same range from same company. Ie we were looking for new large car as rural, new baby etc our old run around was too small. We were always going to lease to buy which can only be done new. Secondhand cars are very expensive where we live (not uk) and we didn’t have €20k cash to buy a 5 year old secondhand car. So it was a much more affordable option. It includes insurance, no mot, no high repair costs we had with old car, and cheap charging. So not more expensive per month.

I think our corsa was 13 year old at purchase, rust bucket, still cost us €4500 at purchase. Kept 5 years, cost a fortune in repairs, fail a mot etc. a second hand 9 year old vw tiguan was still €19,000. The uk has a very very cheap secondhand market ( for cars/ furniture/ clothes) which most other places don’t.

I agree. The queues to change cars put me off. Before all the other issues.

i have an old diesel that is very efficient. Low powered engine. I can no longer drive to Glasgow (where would visit and spend money) so I don’t visit Glasgow any more.

I wouldn’t mind if public transport was better but our local buses have been reduced.

People talking about disposal of the batteries should realise that there is already provision in place to dispose of them. It's not currently as easy as disposing of a petrol/diesel car, but really we're in the same position we were in with those cars 20 years ago before the introduction of the SMDA 2013. Since then, disposing of a standard fuelled vehicle has changed dramatically and the same will happen with electric vehicles.

I'm also not sure what some of you are going on about when you're talking about roads giving way because of the additional weight; they are designed to handle artics, I'm sure they can manage. Yes, current EVs are marginally heavier than their diesel/petrol versions but this is temporary. Batteries and their vehicles are getting lighter all the time. As the push for longer range and better efficiency becomes more pressured, cars get lighter and the battery technology develops. It's only a matter of time before there's a full charge in 15 minute possibility for a car that's lighter than it ever was.

I think the issue of EV fires (far more dangerous than ICEV fires) is going to become more of a political hot potato - particularly as these vehicles age. The risk of batteries developing a critical fault will become more likely as it ages and this will have an impact if people are thinking that the second hand EV market will play an increasing role with time. In certain contexts EV fires pose a significant hazard - the fires can be ridiculously hot and explosive and very difficult to extinguish (thermal runaway) - which could be disastrous, for example, on a car ferry. It is notable that earlier this year a Norwegian ferry banned EVs https://ctif.org/news/norwegian-shipping-company-bans-electric-cars-board-classic-ferry-route.
Similarly, the Australian Maritime Safety Agency recently issued an alert about the threat posed by EVs to passenger ferries because of their capacity to cause high intensity fires (along with their low ground clearance and also their relatively high weights - which might destabilise the vessel). https://globalnews.ca/news/10064206/electric-vehicle-ferry-warning/#:~:text=The%20safety%20alert%20from%20the,toxic%20gases%20and%20gas%20explosions.

Bogwood

I was alerted to the EV fire risk recently by a friend who spends lots of time going down rabbit holes on the internet and is a massive conspiracy nut - so I fact checked it as they often spout a load of crap having not given it any rational thought at all!

EVs are actually less likely to explode or catch fire than petrol and diesel cars. I can’t remember the figures but I found them reassuring as an EV driver. There is risk in everything we do of course - even crossing the road.

This is straight from that article, Bogwood: ‘many of the problems identified in the safety alert would apply to gas powered vehicles as well.’

It may only be one guy who’s writing the weight articles however The UK institution of structural engineers seems to have revised their advice so they must think he is credible.

In June 2023, the U.K.’s Institution of Structural Engineers, a professional body of engineers whose guidelines inform building codes, issued revised advice. In its own words, an updated version of the report “Design recommendations for multi-story and underground car parks” reflects “significant changes to vehicular size, weight and manoeuvrability.” Specifically, it specifies to increase the uniformly distributed load, which represents the vehicles’ weight impact, from 2.5kN/m2 to 3kN/m2,9 a 20% increase.

I read one article about weight limits for cars being introduced. I doubt you could fill the 1970s car Park near me entirely with rangerovers the spaces are too small. The format is Pillar, three spaces, Pillar. It tends to be a small car next to each pillar due to not being able to open the doors, with a large car in the middle. Presumably battery range rovers are heavier than petrol/diesel range rovers? So a car park full of battery rangerovers would be a greater load?

I am not anti electric. However replacing batteries and battery disposal I would like to know more about. Car manufacturers would presumably prefer us all to buy brand new. If batteries are expected to last 10years/100k how does that leave poorer and younger drivers? Will cars be written off or disposed of earlier? What environmental impact will this have?

A Nissa leaf battery seems to be 5k to replace. Articles vary on how long they last 5-10 years. 100k or 8 years sees to be warranty maximum with most manufacturers. At 10 years old our second car had 60k on it and was in very good condition. I gave it to my relative but I’m hoping it lasts him another 5-7years. But if it was electric with a failing battery would it be heading for scrap? Surely that’s also an environmental issue? https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/nissan/89694/nissan-leaf-battery-replacement-to-cost-4920

Bogwood;

From the first article you quoted.

‘Referencing the Norwegian Directorate for Safety and Preparedness (DSB), the NRK news company says that fires in fossil fuel cars are4-5 times as common as fires in electric cars. ‘

**

I don't think that the Norwegian ferry company that I cited, or the Australian Maritime Safety Agency are being influenced by conspiracy theories! ICEV fires might be more likely (and they do at the moment consist of older car stock and average more miles) but the critical point is that an EV fires can be far more intense, endanger life more quickly, pose a risk of spreading to surrounding vehicles more quickly and are more difficult to put out. The intensity of the blaze is far more likely to cause structural damage to whatever they are contained within (in the case of a car ferry, that could be disastrous). I also read that the sheer volume of water that could be required to extinguish the fire could be sufficient to catastrophically destabilise a vessel.

Look at the weight of a diesal Range Rover (2400kg) and a Model 3 (1800kg) and decide if it's true that EV's are the problem here or just bigger heavier cars!

Please please don't believe everything you read, do some research!

Also poster: We were always going to lease to buy which can only be done new. Secondhand cars are very expensive where we live (not uk) and we didn’t have €20k cash to buy a 5 year old secondhand car.

Are you for real?! You've just given me a massive
lecture about why I should have gone EV blah blah blah.

When I said about the cost and not wanting to do finance not having £20k cash to spend on a car you CONTINUED to lecture.

You THEN reveal you live in the EU, where you get massive discounts on EV here due to governments pushing EV, say you happily get finance but didn't have £20k cash to spend on a car!!!!!!!

Yes hello!!!!???!!!! What's wrong with you?

Massive eyeroll. Maybe try listening to other posters rather than polishing your halo in your own self righteousness.

In terms of the cost per month to run a car - if you have to factor in installing your charge point and cost of finance itself, it didn't work out as favourably as you might think because my insurance was so low in the first place and I do really low mileage.

Yes, current EVs are marginally heavier than their diesel/petrol versions but this is temporary. Batteries and their vehicles are getting lighter all the time. As the push for longer range and better efficiency becomes more pressured, cars get lighter and the battery technology develops. It's only a matter of time before there's a full charge in 15 minute possibility for a car that's lighter than it ever was.

One of the things that massively annoys me about this, is we aren't having a discussion about cars getting bigger and how wasteful it is regardless of whether it's EV and petrol. It's a conversation we should be having. Very few people need a large car - even families. People are using energy moving all that weight around on a daily basis which they don't need to.

As for the battery technology - yep very aware of how this is changing so quickly. We will buy a car new and then run it into the ground so we want to go electric when we feel the technology has got to a certain point we feel happy with. In the UK people tend to buy a car for three years then change to the next car in their budget so are constantly changing their threshold for tech. We want a battery that we won't need to worry about for the lifetime of the car.

We have solar and held off getting a battery for that too because batteries are quite where we'd be happy with the tech. I think it will be about five years before we are about there but we will get there.

In the meantime, small car and reducing journeys as much as possible here.

@BottleShipDown
it doesn’t make it clear if diesel/petrol fires are more common due to their being more petrol/diesel cars. I’d expect many more diesel fires as there are many more diesel cars. The fact the shipping company has banned EVs suggests they have serious concerns.

I am glad I have read this thread. I am going to do far more research before I buy electric. The government had incentives for diesels 10-20 years ago (including free road tax due to low emissions) I am not sure that was a well researched policy.

@Bogwood but they're much easier to put out.

Sorry! Meant to quote @BottleShipDown

I am.just commenting on a discussion on a public forum fgs, if I were purporting my view ro be an expert one in some arena where the discussion meant something then of course i.would research, and if I could be arsed I would do some maths around it but seriously this is just a fucking chat forum.

LOL. Did you read so much as the headlines of the articles you linked to? The third is about issues caused by the increased weight of "new cars" in general, not EVs.

In fact, it specifically addresses the fact that the car park issue is being hijacked as a political talking point by the anti-EV lobby, and throws in a sarcastic dig at the writers of one of the other two articles you posted:

"An article in the Telegraph points to the added weight of batteries in EVs as the main risk factor, neatly sidestepping the fact that the average petrol-powered car is twice as heavy today as it was when these car parks were built. Which we’re positive is just an oversight." Source: https://www.topgear.com/car-news/suvs/uk-car-parks-are-apparently-danger-collapsing-because-new-cars-are-so-heavy

FairyMaclary

The figures I read were per 100,000. I checked very carefully as I drive an EV and have DC. I’m very risk averse.

For sure, do your own due diligence though. I’m not trying to push EVs. Just want to have good quality information out there for people.

If you read past the attention grabbing headlines of those two articles there isn’t much substance to them in either pro or against EV camps.

Yes, you will have to wait for them to come into the used car market. Right now on a new car to new car basis they are similar but not on a new to used obviously.

Also you have to remember that the cost calculation is different. So my new EV cost more than I would have spent on a petrol car, but I generally spend about 10%-20% on electricity compared to what i was buying in petrol. Tax is zero, no or minimal servicing as no oil to change etc.... My last petrol car was alternate years £350 and £650 to service.

Its a higher upfront cost but no where near as high running cost.

@FairyMaclary I completely share your concerns about the environmental implications of used battery disposal. There are also major issues with respect to the environmental damage caused by mining necessary for the EV batteries - lithium, copper, rare earth metals etc. Interestingly, at current output of raw materials there will be insufficient supply to meet ambitions for the transition to EVs anyway - and to those who think that supply will simply be increased to meet demand, research how long it takes to get a new copper mine up and running! We are going to face some critical bottlenecks with this whole 'net zero' malarkey (and in reality, when the carbon footprint of these vehicles includes their production, rather than just their running, they are very far from carbon neutral)...this is what happens when you let emotive propaganda run away with itself instead of having policy directed by transparent joined-up thinking!

annahay

Well, may be, but I didn’t find any strong evidence of this in my research. I guess my risk assessment for myself is: how likely is it and what are the consequences?

So an EV fire is 4-5 times less likely than petrol/diesel to catch fire. There is a chance that an EV vehicle fire would be worse, but I don’t know that for sure. Pretty much, if your car is on fire it’s going to be bad right? So I want to minimise that. I have to drive, so actually the car with less chance of going on fire is the lesser of two evils in my mind. I mean we already had it when I was altered to these headlines so that’s a factor too - is it worth switching back? In my mind there wasn’t a reason to switch back to petrol.

But that was just my assessment for myself. Not suggesting anyone else does anything different.

Of course I’m spouting nonsense, until you realise there is no high street left for shopping

It's not 'them' removing high streets. It's people who refuse to visit high streets and shop online. And those who do visit choose Starbucks and Nando's over the local restaurants and cafes.