Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think it’s not fair that we cut public services so that older adults pay less for care?

159 replies

Bristol2021 · 03/11/2023 13:58

I work in a local authority which is facing an unprecedented budget deficit, like most councils across the country. Most of the deficit is due to the government demanding that councils pay the ‘fair cost of care’ - demanding they negotiate with local care providers so that the same rate is charged to councils as to people paying out of pocket (who are not eligible for free care). This brings the cost to private payers down a bit, but raises the cost to most councils by £tens of millions. As a result all councils are having to cut hundreds or thousands of jobs, and cut back any services (things like arts and leisure, homelessness prevention, remaining children’s centres) to what is required by law, and lower standards of what’s left. This is all so that relatively affluent older adults pay less out of pocket for care. Those people still get the lifetime cap on care costs regardless of what they pay per week of care. This is the main reason so many councils are facing bankruptcy (with a few exceptions where there’s been serious financial mismanagement). It seems to me that most tax payers are going to see far worse public services, all so that some older adults can pass on more inheritance at the end of their lives. They’re not going to spend much on themselves once they’re dependant in care, so I find it unbelievable that the ‘injustice’ of paying more than a local authority (who are a bulk purchaser) for a care package is being used to justify driving councils to bankruptcy and decimating services for everyone else. Do people not realise this is happening, or do people just care more about their inheritance than they do about schools, rubbish collection, roads, child protection, public health..?

OP posts:
LoneFemaleTraveller · 03/11/2023 14:01

This is all so that relatively affluent older adults pay less out of pocket for care

how affluent would the elderly person needing care have to be to afford £1k a week?

maybe the answer is councils are better run and better funded, and we finally get rid of the tory government who love running services into the ground.

MrsTerryPratchett · 03/11/2023 14:01

The fact is that cutting public services makes it more expensive, not less. Cut children's services, you'll clean up more graffiti. Cut child protection, you'll need more prisons and rehabs. Cut leisure, you'll have more expensive healthcare.

The real issue isn't pensioners fighting with children, it's underfunding everything.

fiftiesmum · 03/11/2023 14:09

When did the lifetime cap on care come in? It was talked about but never started. Even when it does start only the care part of the fees are counted. Perhaps if some councils weren't allowed to put money into dodgy investments they would have some left over
Plus government funding is reducing as this selfish Tory bunch only care about themselves and where their next vote is coming from

VerityUnreasonble · 03/11/2023 14:15

Lifetime cap on care costs isn't a thing (yet, maybe ever). The idea got pushed back to 2025. Even if implemented people would still have to pay for care homes as "accommodation charges" so they would see a reduction but care wouldn't be fully funded.

That said, I do think people who have capital / assets should pay for some elements of care, including accommodation and some social care. Inheritance isn't a right and if people have the money they should use it rather than hoard it to pass on to people who haven't earned it.

Should people be paying considerably more for their care if they self fund than councils who can buy in bulk? Probably not, while people should pay for their own they shouldn't have to subsidies councils.

Should councils get more money to fund care from the government, absolutely yes. It's a rising bill and needs to be addressed.

Tax would be a sensible way to do this. Could also consider means testing more things given to people over state pension age. Means testing already exists for pension credits so extending this to bus pass / prescription/ winter fuel etc. doesn't seem like it should be much more work.

ilovesooty · 03/11/2023 14:15

I can see how this thread is going to go.

In my council children's services is the biggest cost. The amount children's services will cost this year is projected to be more than the total revenue from council tax.

I'm not, of course, suggesting saving money on children's services but it is looking increasingly likely that the council might go bankrupt.

Grumpystripes · 03/11/2023 14:23

Birmingham City council went bankrupt because it lost an equal pay claim in 2010 which has been paying off ever since and a failed IT project.

Other councils have been losing money by speculating in property or energy companies.

What is happening in 'bankrupt' Birmingham? - BBC News

There also isn't a cap on care costs at the moment.

This is not the fault of elderly people who need care.

Birmingham city centre

What is happening in 'bankrupt' Birmingham?

As the city council announces it cannot commit to any new spending what will it mean for residents?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-66730165

Jellybean85 · 03/11/2023 14:28

Local authorities have certain statutory duties they cannot cut back in. One of the biggest costs by far is children's social care. It's not at all as simple as you're making out op. And as someone else said the cost of care is excruciating, you'd have to be VERY affluent to not bat an eye at 5k+ a month...

ilovesooty · 03/11/2023 14:33

@Jellybean85 exactly.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 03/11/2023 14:36

You don’t seem to understand the difference between how individuals are charged for domicilary care and how they’re charged for residential care

OhmygodDont · 03/11/2023 14:43

Maybe the old cottage type places should have never been closed for those that where in between care and hospital needs, maybe councils should run their own care homes rather than paying private companies.

Maybe we shouldn’t be so obsessed with keeping someone alive at all costs but with a shit quality of life either because we are so scared of death.

Maybe also you shouldn’t expect people paying private to be subbing the council places either.

Ebtsaqt · 03/11/2023 14:44

I dont know our council dont seem to pay for anything
Shut library tick
Try to close tip. Nearly
Not Paying for buses for secondary as over the distance tick (just make catchment school rubbish so noone picks it)
Toilets at park - no
The population here has doubled and we have no services...
Kids at primary who were attempted tp get into sen schools - rejected

So its just bin collection every other week. And we pay for green waste

The charges for care are insane!

DahliaMacNamara · 03/11/2023 14:45

One home we looked at for MIL would require a net income of a couple of grand short of £80,000. That's awfully affluent, especially in an area where selling the average home would buy you less than 3 years' worth of residential care. Pension income would slow it down, of course, but really not by very much. The LA would be picking up the tab eventually. I don't know what the solution is.

Bristol2021 · 03/11/2023 14:46

Thanks, and noted the lifetime cap hasn’t come in yet and may not. I’m not talking about the Birminghams and Thurrocks, they made some very bad decisions but are not typical. £5k a month is a lot and that’s why care is subsidised for people who really can’t afford it. Many people are not eligible for free care and yet struggle to pay, so the adult social care system is failing them already, and this ‘fair cost’ approach is not going to help many of them who will still struggle. It just seems a way to drive a lot of councils to bankruptcy, (which is not a surprising move from this government), rather than the Treasury providing the resource to fund care providers properly.

OP posts:
Flev · 03/11/2023 14:51

Right now Councils are paying way less than it actually costs to provide care. That's why providers are handing contracts back to local authorities - they simply cannot afford to deliver them and are at risk of going bust themselves. It's why salaries in care are so low, backlogs so high (hence impacting on the NHS) and standards so hard to keep high. It's not about saving private payers money, it's about making sure it is actually possible to deliver the services for council-funded individuals.

Flev · 03/11/2023 14:53

@Bristol2021 i was typing before your last post, and didn't want you to think I was laying the blame with Councils, it is 100% a national government problem - constantly cutting budgets to Councils means it's not surprising they are having to offer contracts at these crazily low prices.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 03/11/2023 14:55

The vast majority of older people never go near a care home. Out of 11 million people over 65 only aprox 500,000 go into a care home.

Central government grants to councils have been cut to almost nothing compared to what they were even 10 years ago. Local authorities are expected to make up the difference with business rates to encourage the growth of business and of council tax. In reality of course it’s been impossible to make up the difference as needs & costs of provision increase constantly

local authorities are required to comply with /deliver over 1200 statutory duties - that’s what they must do by law. Anything that is not a statutory requirement is not going to get done because there isn’t the money.

munchbunch12 · 03/11/2023 14:57

OhmygodDont · 03/11/2023 14:43

Maybe the old cottage type places should have never been closed for those that where in between care and hospital needs, maybe councils should run their own care homes rather than paying private companies.

Maybe we shouldn’t be so obsessed with keeping someone alive at all costs but with a shit quality of life either because we are so scared of death.

Maybe also you shouldn’t expect people paying private to be subbing the council places either.

Yup, I agree with this. Watching my beloved grandparent existing for years with dementia, bed bound, doubly incontinent, scared, and paying tens of thousands for the privilege, was heartbreaking. They wouldn't have wanted to be kept alive as they were. It's inhumane.

vivainsomnia · 03/11/2023 15:00

I get what you are saying but there are 2 ways to look at it.

This is all so that relatively affluent older adults pay less out of pocket for care
The argument was that private fees payees were subsidising those getting just about the same services than those who didn't pay. They didn't get that much extra because ultimately, good care is just that, good care, regardless of your situation.

This didn't seem much fair either and only aggravated the gap.

Coshofliving · 03/11/2023 15:01

The problem is demographics and low wages. The average UK citizen age is now over 40 because we've got loads of old people and not enough young people. Those who are of working age and are employees aren't earning very much compared to 20 years ago so tax take has gone down. Whether you fund through central or local government this is the case. Cutting services further isn't the answer; they're barely functioning as it is. We need more young immigrants and higher wages.

Maddy70 · 03/11/2023 15:02

Just don't vote Tory.

Coshofliving · 03/11/2023 15:04

That's a good first step, true.

Ohhelpicantthinkofaname · 03/11/2023 15:14

The council pays well below the going rate to fund their places in care homes, social workers are often having to negotiate a price as most homes won’t take the council rate and the council can’t pay their full rate. I’ve worked in intermediate care so have first hand experience of the situation. Even most people who are self funding don’t have enough funds for more than a few years as the cost per week is so high.

the system is broken, the cost of care is astronomical and yet most homes barely break even and can’t afford to pay their staff the wage they deserve. More funding for social care is needed from central government before the whole system implodes in on itself. Local councils simply cannot keep up with the rising costs. With the aging population the problem is only going to get worse. A huge overhaul of funding priorities is needed and soon.

Gcsunnyside23 · 03/11/2023 15:20

Are you actually joking?? Is it not basically if your partner works/owns own home then you get shafted for care costs? A family member has advanced dementia, he is in his 60s and they have tried to take the house from his wife and are crippling her with costs for a care home as she still works. She's in a bog standard job and now paying her bills alone but also has these extra bills. They have worked all their lives and ended up with no support. And to point out it's a medically deemed need for him to be in a home so he cant come home either. But if they were on benefits no payment would be mentioned.
It's not affluent people that are bearing the brunt of this. How is this fair?

Theeyeballsinthesky · 03/11/2023 15:25

when it comes to residential care, the law says if the spouse is still residing in the property it must be disregarded for care costs

any local authority pursuing his wife to sell the home is breaking the law and she should seek legal advice

jessycake · 03/11/2023 15:30

I can remember when we were told low tax and low public spending was going to take us to the promised land and yet here we are !