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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think it’s not fair that we cut public services so that older adults pay less for care?

159 replies

Bristol2021 · 03/11/2023 13:58

I work in a local authority which is facing an unprecedented budget deficit, like most councils across the country. Most of the deficit is due to the government demanding that councils pay the ‘fair cost of care’ - demanding they negotiate with local care providers so that the same rate is charged to councils as to people paying out of pocket (who are not eligible for free care). This brings the cost to private payers down a bit, but raises the cost to most councils by £tens of millions. As a result all councils are having to cut hundreds or thousands of jobs, and cut back any services (things like arts and leisure, homelessness prevention, remaining children’s centres) to what is required by law, and lower standards of what’s left. This is all so that relatively affluent older adults pay less out of pocket for care. Those people still get the lifetime cap on care costs regardless of what they pay per week of care. This is the main reason so many councils are facing bankruptcy (with a few exceptions where there’s been serious financial mismanagement). It seems to me that most tax payers are going to see far worse public services, all so that some older adults can pass on more inheritance at the end of their lives. They’re not going to spend much on themselves once they’re dependant in care, so I find it unbelievable that the ‘injustice’ of paying more than a local authority (who are a bulk purchaser) for a care package is being used to justify driving councils to bankruptcy and decimating services for everyone else. Do people not realise this is happening, or do people just care more about their inheritance than they do about schools, rubbish collection, roads, child protection, public health..?

OP posts:
Hotchocolate2023 · 03/11/2023 15:32

Yes. I work in a 0-25 SEND team. We are barely functioning and left to it. We grossly underfund the future generations in order to give more to the elderly.

Neriah · 03/11/2023 15:44

Bristol2021 · 03/11/2023 13:58

I work in a local authority which is facing an unprecedented budget deficit, like most councils across the country. Most of the deficit is due to the government demanding that councils pay the ‘fair cost of care’ - demanding they negotiate with local care providers so that the same rate is charged to councils as to people paying out of pocket (who are not eligible for free care). This brings the cost to private payers down a bit, but raises the cost to most councils by £tens of millions. As a result all councils are having to cut hundreds or thousands of jobs, and cut back any services (things like arts and leisure, homelessness prevention, remaining children’s centres) to what is required by law, and lower standards of what’s left. This is all so that relatively affluent older adults pay less out of pocket for care. Those people still get the lifetime cap on care costs regardless of what they pay per week of care. This is the main reason so many councils are facing bankruptcy (with a few exceptions where there’s been serious financial mismanagement). It seems to me that most tax payers are going to see far worse public services, all so that some older adults can pass on more inheritance at the end of their lives. They’re not going to spend much on themselves once they’re dependant in care, so I find it unbelievable that the ‘injustice’ of paying more than a local authority (who are a bulk purchaser) for a care package is being used to justify driving councils to bankruptcy and decimating services for everyone else. Do people not realise this is happening, or do people just care more about their inheritance than they do about schools, rubbish collection, roads, child protection, public health..?

Odd - the largest part of the deficit in pretty much every coucil that I know of is the spiralling costs of Children's Services, which have generally outstripped the budget amount witin 3 months of the financial year starting. Not old people who need care. And I wouldn't have described £23,250 savings "affluent" - because over that amount in England and NI you pay for care in full (Wales and Scotland are more generous).

That said there is one thing, and one thing alone, that is responsible for the unprecedented budget deficits and the state of public services - 23 years of Tory rule, which has siphoned vast amounts of public money to line the pockets of their rich private sector buddies at the expense of the most vulnerable people in society.

CrotchetyQuaver · 03/11/2023 15:58

With respect I don't think you know what you're talking about. Local government funding from central government (which forms the majority of local authority funding) has been cut year on year for decades by various administrations. It started at the end of the 1970's and has happened ever since. There isn't anything left to efficiency/cut, it's down to bare bones and they're having to make very hard choices now with black holes in the budgets of around £100m a year. Why do you think the roads are in such a state, schools underfunded (for example), social services in a mess - it's lack of funding! People getting older and living longer is not the root cause of all this, many pensioners are still taxpayers.

IrresponsiblyCertainAboutSexualDimorphism · 03/11/2023 16:05

Most of the deficit is due to the government demanding that councils pay the ‘fair cost of care’ - demanding they negotiate with local care providers so that the same rate is charged to councils as to people paying out of pocket (who are not eligible for free care). This brings the cost to private payers down a bit, but raises the cost to most councils by £tens of millions.

Oh come on OP, do you seriously believe that any care provider is lowering their prices to self-funders?

IrresponsiblyCertainAboutSexualDimorphism · 03/11/2023 16:09

Those people still get the lifetime cap on care costs regardless of what they pay per week of care.

What lifetime cap? Everyone with funds above £23k (approx) is expected to pay for all their care, and after that it’s on a sliding scale until you get down to the funds required for a funeral and a little bit over.

I don’t think you have a clue what you’re talking about.

SecretVictoria · 03/11/2023 16:11

Neriah · 03/11/2023 15:44

Odd - the largest part of the deficit in pretty much every coucil that I know of is the spiralling costs of Children's Services, which have generally outstripped the budget amount witin 3 months of the financial year starting. Not old people who need care. And I wouldn't have described £23,250 savings "affluent" - because over that amount in England and NI you pay for care in full (Wales and Scotland are more generous).

That said there is one thing, and one thing alone, that is responsible for the unprecedented budget deficits and the state of public services - 23 years of Tory rule, which has siphoned vast amounts of public money to line the pockets of their rich private sector buddies at the expense of the most vulnerable people in society.

The tories haven’t been in power for 23 years.

FloweryName · 03/11/2023 16:15

I’m happy to pay tax so that all older people are supported, including those that have paid in and not only those on the breadline.

Anyone who pays tax will have things they support and things they don’t, but we don’t get much choice. I’d much rather pay for elderly care than stay at home parents or fertility treatments or for people to have more children than they can afford without state help. At least those older people will have contributed to the system.

RudsyFarmer · 03/11/2023 16:16

This reply has been deleted

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Lochness1975 · 03/11/2023 16:29

What a disgusting comment!

Mumsgirls · 03/11/2023 16:29

Sorry you are wrong. My mum worked all her life and will soon need care ok her home will go to pay , no argument. Previously paying people were being charged a lot extra, to subsidise the council paying for person in the identical room next door, but had no assets. How is that fair? You object now because the councils have been told to stop a grossly unfair practice.

fetchacloth · 03/11/2023 16:29

I've often wondered whether local councils should have, and run, their own senior care facilities. These would be financed on a not-for-profit basis. This then means that the taxpayer isn't funding profit making private care facilities.
I don't think it's ethical that the taxpayer is funding privately owned facilities in this way.

IrresponsiblyCertainAboutSexualDimorphism · 03/11/2023 16:30

Lochness1975 · 03/11/2023 16:29

What a disgusting comment!

I think (or at least hope) that was sarcasm.

Theendoftheday · 03/11/2023 16:31

The thing is providing care costs money and it has to be paid for somehow. Increasing taxes to pay for it is unpopular.

I work in this area and the amount of people who play the system to avoid having to pay what they see as their inheritance towards parents care fees is amazing. My DH and I are doing our wills at the moment the company are trying to push a more expensive will to avoid having to pay care fees. We are not doing this as I think it is morally wrong.

Essentially no-one wants to pay for care, however care needs paying for some way. Even if the government fund it that money has to come from somewhere!

DistrictAndCircle · 03/11/2023 16:32

"Fairness" is very hard to define and impossible for everyone to agree on. Care costs are one of the best examples of why.

It's not fair that some people end up sick enough to need care, whilst others don't.
It's not fair that some people have relatives willing to look after them and capable of doing so, whilst others don't.
It's not fair that some people have saved to give their money to their kids, forgoing luxuries that others have experienced by spending their money and not saving.
It's not fair that those people then have to spend that money on care rather than leaving it for their kids.
It's not fair that some kids get big inheritances and some don't.
It's not fair that some people are net contributors to the public purse and some are the opposite.

But there are no "fair" solutions to these and other things. The job of policy makers is to smooth the edges so that the unfairnesses are less striking. We've failed to do that with social care, over so many years that now both the people needing the care and the Councils funding it are stuffed. And any attempts at making the system less broken are stymied because people shout "It's unfair!"

Fifteenth · 03/11/2023 16:33

ilovesooty · 03/11/2023 14:15

I can see how this thread is going to go.

In my council children's services is the biggest cost. The amount children's services will cost this year is projected to be more than the total revenue from council tax.

I'm not, of course, suggesting saving money on children's services but it is looking increasingly likely that the council might go bankrupt.

Interesting, thanks

IrresponsiblyCertainAboutSexualDimorphism · 03/11/2023 16:35

fetchacloth · 03/11/2023 16:29

I've often wondered whether local councils should have, and run, their own senior care facilities. These would be financed on a not-for-profit basis. This then means that the taxpayer isn't funding profit making private care facilities.
I don't think it's ethical that the taxpayer is funding privately owned facilities in this way.

Absolutely. My DM lived in a really lovely (kind, clean, not at all plush) not-for-profit care home that was about 20% self-funders charged somewhere around £700 per week. The going rate at other private homes was about £1000 per week. And I know my DM was somewhat subsidising her fellow residents.

It’s clear some care homes are raking it in. They aren’t paying their staff any more either.

But you know, the market will provide. 🙄

OhmygodDont · 03/11/2023 16:37

The thing is aswell is why is care so expensive. I get different needs need different things but I just can’t work out how it can cost 1k or more a week for a care home place. I’d want a constant 1-1 and gourmet meals tbh and people in care homes certainly any getting that level of care.

grottyb · 03/11/2023 16:40

It seems to me that most tax payers are going to see far worse public services, all so that some older adults can pass on more inheritance at the end of their lives.

I agree with this point. I think people should pay more for their care & means testing should be applied for care in the home in the same manner I’m not sure why care workers should get paid peanuts to ensure others receive more inheritance. It’s only going to get worse with an ageing population & staff shortages.

grottyb · 03/11/2023 16:41

I don't think it's ethical that the taxpayer is funding privately owned facilities in this way.

It’s like paying £££ to landlords though as so much social housing has been paid off. Or for childcare.

Neriah · 03/11/2023 16:43

SecretVictoria · 03/11/2023 16:11

The tories haven’t been in power for 23 years.

Oh my applogies - fat fingers - 13 years. 13 years of savage cuts for the most vulnerable whilst they and their mates lined their pockets. Makes all the difference....

CwmYoy · 03/11/2023 16:46

Why should those who have been frugal pay the cost for the feckless who never saved a penny?

I think we'll start spending our savings.

GunboatDiplomacy · 03/11/2023 16:46

OhmygodDont · 03/11/2023 16:37

The thing is aswell is why is care so expensive. I get different needs need different things but I just can’t work out how it can cost 1k or more a week for a care home place. I’d want a constant 1-1 and gourmet meals tbh and people in care homes certainly any getting that level of care.

A single minimum wage employee 24 / 7 would cost the employer the thick end of 150,000. Before you get into food, rent, laundry, admin. Not many care home residents paying that.

Neriah · 03/11/2023 16:47

fetchacloth · 03/11/2023 16:29

I've often wondered whether local councils should have, and run, their own senior care facilities. These would be financed on a not-for-profit basis. This then means that the taxpayer isn't funding profit making private care facilities.
I don't think it's ethical that the taxpayer is funding privately owned facilities in this way.

They used to. Care homes weren't big business until privatisation in the 1980's. Now let's see, which party was it that did that? Oh yes, one that doesn't give a damn about vulnerable people and likes lining the pockets of their mega-rich friends....

Fionaville · 03/11/2023 16:48

Of all the things that annoy me about how this country is run, helping old people pay for care isn't one of them. I think the government needs to fund local councils better and those councils need to be run better. I don't begrudge old people the right to have care in their old age. I don't see it as robbing the young to care for the old. I see it as the government robbing everybody!

grottyb · 03/11/2023 16:50

In my council children's services is the biggest cost. The amount children's services will cost this year is projected to be more than the total revenue from council tax.

Thats unusual though, as birth rates have dropped considerably over the years. What area is that in?