Page 3 | AIBU to let my baby cry it out

hotcheeto · 2023-11-03T13:22:24+00:00

My baby is almost 8 months old. Since he was 2 months old I have held him for every single nap. It hurts my hips to hold him on my lap for 90 minutes twice a day, at least, and as a velcro baby, nap time is the only time of day I get a physical or mental break. I know this stage won't last forever but I'd also really like to be able to eat something and drink a glass of water sometime before 6pm daily when my partner gets home from work. Today I decided to start cot naps. The first nap of the day was good, he cried for 5 minutes, I went in to reassure, cried for another 5 minutes, I went in again, and after 11 minutes total he was asleep. He slept for 1hr 15 mins. Amazing. For his second nap I did the same, but there was no calming him down. Going in kept making it worse. In total he properly screamed for about 20 minutes being going to sleep. I feel awful. Can someone reassure me I'm not a selfish failure of a mother and my baby isn't going to be forever scarred by this? It's genuinely upset me, listening to him cry hard, but I'm also feeling determined to teach him better sleeping habits. I'm going back to work very soon and I don't want him to struggle at childcare. I also don't want to sit in the dark and listen to white noise for 3 hours a day anymore. But I still feel sad and guilty...

Cornflakes44 · 03/11/2023 22:04

RadoxRita · 03/11/2023 22:00

Dear God! Emily Oster is an economist and stressed-out parent. Where are her credentials to advise on this sort of stuff? I enjoyed reading Gabor Mate’s scathing cirque of her ‘input’ in his latest book - The Myth of Normal - you should check it out!

She's well respected and she does a dispassionate review of all the science out there and presents the information. I think a lot of the evidence that it's bad for babies is based on situations where abuse is present, so the baby actually being ignored rather than loving relationships where they are being allowed to cry for short periods.

RadoxRita · 03/11/2023 22:07

On what basis is she respected? I’m sure she’s an excellent economist. - I have no qualifications on which to appraise her skills. But in terms of child development, psychologists, psychiatrists and academics in child development alike are all horrified by the influence someone so unqualified has had. It’s really disturbing (although perhaps not surprising when she says what so many people want to hear!)

Green777 · 03/11/2023 22:09

@RadoxRita

Thank you for the informative post. I think most parents know intuitively this is right. Thankfully.

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 03/11/2023 22:10

Could you let him
Fall asleep in your arms then move him
To cot? That's what I do?

Merryoldgoat · 03/11/2023 22:10

The reality is this is divisive. People like me think it’s cruel, others say it works wonders.

All I’ll say is I started trying it against my better judgement when my son was 10 months because he was a dreadful sleeper. He fell asleep after 10 minutes. I went check him and he’d vomited over himself in distress.

Never did it again and 10 years on I feel horrible still.

There is no point asking because you can’t sway people - it’s too emotive.

Didimum · 03/11/2023 22:24

In no universe do you need to justify sleep training to anyone. And on an internet forum you are inevitably going to get berated by those against it – and then you are likely to steep in guilt even though you want to do it, because some stranger is passing judgement on you.

The BBC recently did a great compilation of the research on this. I would read it, and proceed guilt free – you’re a great mum and you don’t need anyone’s blessing.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220322-how-sleep-training-affects-babies#:~:text=Of%20the%20few%20studies%20that,baby's%20attachment%20or%20mental%20health.

What really happens when babies are left to cry it out?

Some parents see "sleep training" as the key to a good night's rest. Others argue that it's distressing for babies. What do scientists say about its risks and benefits?

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220322-how-sleep-training-affects-babies#:~:text=Of%20the%20few%20studies%20that,baby's%20attachment%20or%20mental%20health.

RadoxRita · 03/11/2023 22:37

Thanks for sharing this - you’ve just confirmed my point… “Experts like Hiscock say they aren't aware of any studies that look at potential long-term effects of cold-turkey cry-it-out […]. They also examined healthy babies at least six months old. So these findings aren't necessarily applicable to infants trained at younger ages, or in other ways”. Like I said earlier, studies like that would never be ethically approved because of the risk of clinical harm to infants. Rather, experts use a synthesis of the extensive available research in the areas of early brain development, attachment and developmental trauma to conclude this practice is harmful.

Anyhow, I’ve said my piece. It’s up to the OP what she chooses to do. Seeing the impact further down the line though, I couldn’t not say anything. Good luck to you all.

kernowpicklepie · 03/11/2023 22:50

It's not for me! It's not necessary as their sleep gets better when they are ready and each child is different. You can't teach sleep, babies sleep in the womb so they know how but now they're outside and it's scary, they're learning loads and they can struggle to switch off!

8 months can be separation anxiety. DD affected badly but DS has been fine.

Couldn't you try a carrier and they'll just nap on you while you make a drink/food?

DS is 10 months and either car naps or carrier naps. He'd probably fall asleep in a cot but I have DD (2years) and she'd just wake him up so it's easier for carrier or car.

Also, don't be worried about childcare as children are often so different there to at home and the nursery will find a way to help them sleep!

WillowCraft · 03/11/2023 23:13

Sauvblanctime · 03/11/2023 13:43

Yes.

sorry but there’s so much research done that shows how detrimental it is to their development. Babies stop crying because they know no one is coming

There is actually NO research showing that the sort of sleep training OP is doing, in the context of a loving family home, is detrimental, but there is research showing it makes no difference to the mental health of the child.

Babies don't give up crying due to sleep triaing. They give up crying if no one ever responds (Romanian orphanage scenario) that is very different. Ask anyone whose baby is sleep trained if their baby still cries, They will all say yes

WillowCraft · 03/11/2023 23:15

RadoxRita · 03/11/2023 22:07

On what basis is she respected? I’m sure she’s an excellent economist. - I have no qualifications on which to appraise her skills. But in terms of child development, psychologists, psychiatrists and academics in child development alike are all horrified by the influence someone so unqualified has had. It’s really disturbing (although perhaps not surprising when she says what so many people want to hear!)

all she does is review the literature. If you spend a few hours on google scholar you can do it yourself, if you don't believe her. It's not like she is writing her opinion

Sauvblanctime · 03/11/2023 23:20

WillowCraft · 03/11/2023 23:13

There is actually NO research showing that the sort of sleep training OP is doing, in the context of a loving family home, is detrimental, but there is research showing it makes no difference to the mental health of the child.

Babies don't give up crying due to sleep triaing. They give up crying if no one ever responds (Romanian orphanage scenario) that is very different. Ask anyone whose baby is sleep trained if their baby still cries, They will all say yes

Show quote history

There’s loads of research. Same as in orphanages, your baby doesn’t cry because they know no one is coming

BirthdayFlower · 03/11/2023 23:24

I completely agree with @RadoxRita

There are lots of ways to move gradually from contact sleeping to sleeping independently without crying it out. This book The No-Cry Sleep Solution, Second Edition (FAMILY & RELATIONSHIPS) https://amzn.eu/d/f8Ft3bF is full of tips for how to do so gently and without distress.

Legoroses · 03/11/2023 23:38

Convincing people who have invested in one approach that that approach might be damaging their children is basically impossible - that's what cognitive dissonance is. We can't let ourselves hold that sort of belief about our actions - so this is a pointless question for a chat forum. We're all going to say the thing we did was the right thing, but i'm afraid the actual science is with the psychologist.

WillowCraft · 03/11/2023 23:41

RadoxRita · 03/11/2023 21:44

A baby that age absolutely does NOT recognise that you are still there. A baby’s brain at that age is not structurally or neurologically developed enough to recognise itself as separate from its primary caregiver, whom its primal (attachment) behaviours such as crying are designed to elicit care from.

A baby at that age is completely at the mercy of its physiological state. It experiences a wet nappy with the same level of distress as imminent death. Its neurological development does not make sense of patterns at that age. A baby is physically incapable of ‘self-soothing’ - babies and young children NEED attunement and comfort from a safe adult to genuinely calm. The loss of crying is owing to one of two factors - the baby has given up (an attachment wound that will continue) or they are so distressed/exhausted they collapse (babies sleep when distressed - dissociation is their only escape when other survival mechanisms (such as fight, flight or fawn) evade them. Please don’t mistake a quiet baby for a happy/calm baby after being left to ‘cry it out’ - any blood test would show you the elevation is cortisol.

A baby’s earliest, pre-verbal experiences shape what they come to believe about themselves, what they expect from others and how safe they perceive the world as the develop. This impacts on their ability to develop other fundamental skills as they develop of emotional and behavioural regulation as they grow. Don’t ever let anyone tell you that something a baby can’t remember won’t harm them. We know very well now that the inter utero environment through to the 5th birthday is the most profound time for trauma to impact long term on children’s subsequent mental and physiological health. Children that hold no explicit memory carry it in their bodies (not least because the brain structures and language capacities were not present to help it be processed at the time they experienced it).

It is not hard to find this information online. You don’t really need a clinician like me to tell you this. You just need to stop asking people on here who did it themselves so, likely have a invested interest in insisting it does no harm (what we call ‘cognitive dissonance’). These kinds of people always demand to see ‘research’ that “proves” crying it out is harmful, but obviously, no ethics committee is ever going to approve a study that could potentially cause harm to infants. Rather, just like in many areas of this nature, the (extensive) available research that supports this being a harmful practice is drawn from a synthesis of what we know about brain development, attachment and developmental trauma. I hope this helps.

I don't believe you're a clincial psychologist at all. Lots of babies can go to sleep on their own right from birth so it's not true to say they are incapable of it. Also most babies don't care about having a wet nappy.

Sleep trained babies do not "give up" crying either at night or in the day. It's just that they no longer cry because they can't get to sleep. (because they don't need to). They will still cry for other reasons such as hunger, illness etc.

There has been at least one randomised controlled trial on sleep training which I'm sure you are aware of if you are an expert, as you claim. There are also plenty of other study designs. None found any harm from sleep training

I don't think there is any evidence showing that sleep training is harmful. (if you know of any please feel free to link - I cannot find any) There is of course evidence that extreme neglect is harmful but that is not relevant.

As for the claim you made earlier that child and teenage mental health problems are due to being sleep trained as a child - it seems highly unlikely that you can pin the cause down to any one thing. Did none of these children have divorced parents, excessive screen time or social media use, parental mental health problems, neglect or abuse, bullying at school, attend nursery from a young age, etc etc etc?

WillowCraft · 03/11/2023 23:42

Sauvblanctime · 03/11/2023 23:20

There’s loads of research. Same as in orphanages, your baby doesn’t cry because they know no one is coming

Show quote history

Oh for goodness sake. Link one study then, I challenge you. A peer reviewed scientific study, not an opinion by Sarah Ockwell Smith

WillowCraft · 03/11/2023 23:45

Legoroses · 03/11/2023 23:38

Convincing people who have invested in one approach that that approach might be damaging their children is basically impossible - that's what cognitive dissonance is. We can't let ourselves hold that sort of belief about our actions - so this is a pointless question for a chat forum. We're all going to say the thing we did was the right thing, but i'm afraid the actual science is with the psychologist.

The science is in the scientific literature, use google scholar and have a look for yourself.

Also, check out the pyramid of evidence. Expert opinion (e.g. from a single clinical psychologist) is the lowest form of evidence (expert opinion from an internet random would be even lower if it were listed).

WannaLiveInABubble · 03/11/2023 23:49

We did controlled crying with all of ours, no damage done, now young adults, teens and kids.

WillowCraft · 03/11/2023 23:52

RadoxRita · 03/11/2023 22:37

Thanks for sharing this - you’ve just confirmed my point… “Experts like Hiscock say they aren't aware of any studies that look at potential long-term effects of cold-turkey cry-it-out […]. They also examined healthy babies at least six months old. So these findings aren't necessarily applicable to infants trained at younger ages, or in other ways”. Like I said earlier, studies like that would never be ethically approved because of the risk of clinical harm to infants. Rather, experts use a synthesis of the extensive available research in the areas of early brain development, attachment and developmental trauma to conclude this practice is harmful.

Anyhow, I’ve said my piece. It’s up to the OP what she chooses to do. Seeing the impact further down the line though, I couldn’t not say anything. Good luck to you all.

Did you actually read the article...it includes loads of studies....the Hiscock study is an RCT and follows children up to 6 years...looks at similar method to what OP is doing....

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/230830539_Five-Year_Follow-up_of_Harms_and_Benefits_of_Behavioral_Infant_Sleep_Intervention_Randomized_Trial

Sauvblanctime · 03/11/2023 23:54

WillowCraft · 03/11/2023 23:42

Oh for goodness sake. Link one study then, I challenge you. A peer reviewed scientific study, not an opinion by Sarah Ockwell Smith

Show quote history

https://www.laleche.org.uk/letting-babies-cry-facts-behind-studies/#:~:text=In%201998%2C%20Harvard%20research%20showed,and%20sensitive%20to%20future%20trauma.&text=Chronic%20stress%20in%20infancy%20can,illness%20far%20into%20the%20future.

Letting Babies Cry – The Facts Behind the Studies - La Leche League GB

One of the biggest adjustments a new mother may have to make is to realise that babies can need their mothers twenty-four hours a day. From the moment a woman gives birth she can find herself bombarded with a vast array of ideas and suggestions, and th...

https://www.laleche.org.uk/letting-babies-cry-facts-behind-studies/#:~:text=In%201998%2C%20Harvard%20research%20showed,and%20sensitive%20to%20future%20trauma.&text=Chronic%20stress%20in%20infancy%20can,illness%20far%20into%20the%20future.

WillowCraft · 04/11/2023 00:07

Sauvblanctime · 03/11/2023 23:54

https://www.laleche.org.uk/letting-babies-cry-facts-behind-studies/#:~:text=In%201998%2C%20Harvard%20research%20showed,and%20sensitive%20to%20future%20trauma.&text=Chronic%20stress%20in%20infancy%20can,illness%20far%20into%20the%20future.

Show quote history

That's an opinion piece, not a scientific study. It also doesn't claim sleep training has any detrimental effects. It only references one study on sleep training and that one says it isn't harmful.

ShineBright1209 · 04/11/2023 00:08

I haven’t read the FT but do whatever works for you and don’t feel guilty about it. I have never done contact naps with any of my 4 children and they all slept in their own crib from day 1. They were all put to bed awake at night on their own from about 3/4 weeks old and then disturbed only for night feeds for a few weeks. Daytime naps were done in the pram or once too big for that they went up to their cot. I did have to do sleep training with my eldest at around 16 months old due to him getting into a habit of coming into my room during the night (medical reasons were making him vomit in the night). Once he was no longer vomiting if he woke I did the sleep training, went about a week with broken sleep but soon went back to sleeping fine.
Yes all mine have gone through phases and been left to cry it out within reason, my oldest is now 13 and doesn’t seem to have any issues because I didn’t run to him at every noise he made and neither do any of my others.

Sauvblanctime · 04/11/2023 00:23

WillowCraft · 04/11/2023 00:07

That's an opinion piece, not a scientific study. It also doesn't claim sleep training has any detrimental effects. It only references one study on sleep training and that one says it isn't harmful.

Show quote history

This

justanothermanicmonday1 · 04/11/2023 00:33

Sauvblanctime · 03/11/2023 13:43

Yes.

sorry but there’s so much research done that shows how detrimental it is to their development. Babies stop crying because they know no one is coming

This is a punch in the gut. Holy shit.

So glad I didn't do this. Breaks my heart.

bakewellbride · 04/11/2023 00:34

I could never do it (and my youngest was similar so I know exactly how you feel - she woke hourly for 11 months and I nearly had a mental health crisis - but even then I never left her).

PabloandGustheGreySquirrels · 04/11/2023 01:00

@WillowCraft & @Sauvblanctime I remember being left to cry and being terrified, thinking they'd gone or that they didn't care. Research & studies have proven time & time again that babies who were left to cry it out, grew up with abandonment issues.