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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

It's not fucking demons.

63 replies

whatsthatinyourhand · 31/10/2023 22:21

Just reading the news about Matthew Perry's death and keep reading about how he had demons. He didn't have fucking demons. He had an illness. People wouldn't describe having recurring cancer as 'having demons'.
It's the same thing. He didn't choose to be ill or be an addict. I know this thread is not going to make a difference to anything or anyone but the distinction is important.
I have no idea whether he had 'demons' or not but addiction was not one of them.

OP posts:
NeunundneunzigHorseBallonz · 02/11/2023 01:25

As someone with cancer, and a family full of both cancer sufferers and addicts, I find it very difficult not to be a bit pissed at you equating it with cancer.

I am not going to minimize the affects addiction has on families and friends - it absolutely sucks, but no matter how you boil it down, addiction and it’s treatment both involve CHOICE.
There is so much education in schools, in the media, etc…. Apart from not taking up smoking or having a bad diet (both are addictions too, yes…), no amount of education is going to stop cancer from forming.

My brother chose to take every drug he could. My brother chose to sell drugs. My brother chose to steal from his family, intimidate, threaten, hold knives to and beat us up. My brother chose to put our 96 year old grandmother in hospital.

I did not choose cancer. Nobody goes out partying with friends decides to try cancer and see what it’s like.

ClareBlue · 02/11/2023 01:32

It's not fucking either which is a crude term for sexual intercourse, unless you are suggesting that it's something to do with demons having sexual intercouse.
You see the point OP

ClareBlue · 02/11/2023 01:33

Figures of speech

MessyMyrtle · 02/11/2023 01:42

I hadn’t thought about this. But it’s a good question.

When I had PND I did feel like ‘the weight of the world was on my shoulders’ and there was ‘a black cloud hanging over my head.’ They were words that aptly described the very real heavy feeling like something pushing me down, and everything being dark and foggy around me. In fact, doesn’t matter how differently I try to describe the physical sensations of severe depression, those old phrases were the best way of communicating how I felt. So maybe ‘demons’ works too. I must say I like it better than ‘issues’ - I wish that word would just fuck right off.

I don’t like arguments about choice concerning drug or alcohol additions, and physical diseases or ailments. I have a disabling illness, and I’ve seen loved ones suffer with alcohol and drug dependencies and it’s all shit. No judgement from me over any of it.

myopinionmatters · 02/11/2023 01:43

Taking drugs is a choice. Having cancer isn't a choice.

Newsername1 · 02/11/2023 02:12

YANBU. There certainly has been a movement, in the medical profession over the past decade or two, away from using slang and idioms (including “wrestling with demons”) in discussing addiction.

The concern being that using such language can contribute to stigma surrounding addiction and thus dissuade people from seeking treatment.

Apparently the media hasn’t caught on.

GarlicGrace · 02/11/2023 03:16

If someone talks about a person's "demons" I assume they mean unresolved psychological/emotional issues and whatever behavioural problems those have caused.

But I'm a Brit. A very high proportion of Americans believe in literal demons. So, for that reasons, yes it does make me twitchy when they speak of demons.

Poor old Matthew, anyway. He seemed a likeable fellow.

Topseyt123 · 02/11/2023 03:54

Brexile · 01/11/2023 07:05

YABU, and deliberately obtuse. Plus, f you want to start a thread shaming people for using offensive language, don't use offensive words (and I don't mean "demons") in the thread title. If you're triggered into a sweary tantrum by perfectly normal and uncontroversial figures of speech, you may wish to stay away from not just the internet but from everything ever written.

The word fuck is part of the language of MN. If you can't take that then perhaps this isn't the place for you.

OP, I don't see why you are bothered by the use of the word "demons" here. It's a figure of speech, and I would describe addiction as a demon. I don't see the issue with that.

DumboHimalayan · 02/11/2023 05:25

I think on balance I mostly agree, OP. I guess where I differ is that I wouldn't tell people not to use it, but do I think it's worth having a discussion about it.

Yeah, it's a metaphor, figure of speech, "sensitive" way to refer to it, whatever. But it's one with at least some roots in damaging conceptualisations of mental health problems through history (including difficulties resulting from trauma and substance use disorders). Right up to the present day, mentally ill people, as well as those with epilepsy and other disorders, have been and are being horribly abused or killed, because of literal belief in actual demons as a cause of their symptoms.

I realise that "demons" is often used to refer to life issues, personal tragedies and psychological problems that aren't mental illness in themselves. There's long been a separate use of the concept of "demons" as a metaphor, at times where it's difficult or taboo to be explicit. And I get that people don't generally mean it as a reference to literal demons, or intend to cause any distress or harm.

But sometimes people innocently use language that, for others with different experiences, resonates with hidden history and context, or maybe seems to subtly perpetuate ways of thinking about things that have caused harm. Hurtful and harmful ideas can be alluded to in the language people use, even when they don't intend it that way.

Nobody should have to stop using whatever language they find most useful or comfortable (or that they just want to use), and I'd never want to try and force people into changing the way they speak. But I do think that people who find that language distressing, or who think it's harmful, should feel able to say so. And people who believe the language isn't harmful or distressing, or that the benefits outweigh any potential harm, should be able to say so, too.

I wouldn't directly challenge someone for using the term, though, as they're almost certainly just using the words that automatically came to mind for something like "unspecified difficult personal issues". Or maybe like PPs they personally find it a meaningful metaphor for the experience.

So I think things like this can be worth having standalone discussions about (like this thread), rather than directly challenging people using them in what might be an emotional situation.

I agree that it's also worth thinking about why we feel the need to use a metaphor for this, but not other things. I see why people point out the differences re: cancer, but maybe there are other physical issues that might work.

Like, maybe, my DP's chronic physical condition, that he has to pay attention to every day to stop it deteriorating. Sometimes issues flare up because he didn't do some part of his preventative stuff/he had an off day and did something daft to trigger a flare/it came back anyway just because it's a total fucker. It's a constant boring gruelling struggle with setbacks, "victories" and "defeats", and sometimes an urge to just sack it all in and give up. It's not the same as addiction (or a trauma history, or mental illness) but it could be a metaphorical "demon". But people don't seem to feel the need to use that kind of metaphor for his condition.

stayathomer · 02/11/2023 05:58

I find it more irritating that people were SO quick to post about it straight after he had died when some reports were indicating he might have had a heart attack and it might have not been linked to suicide or alcohol but then people are idiots- I remember when Chadwick Boseman passed a woman commented on how awful young people didn’t know how lucky they were- insane given how much coverage there’d been of him having cancer

MassageForLife · 02/11/2023 06:57

I actually think that using the phrase is more descriptive than saying 'he had mental health problems' or 'he suffered from depression' or 'he was an addict', because it gives an impression of someone plagued by dark thoughts over a long period of time, something that was recurring and difficult to deal with or get rid of.

Caterpillarsleftfoot · 02/11/2023 07:06

NancyJoan · 31/10/2023 23:44

I’m not sure I agree that addiction is a disease. It’s also not a case of a moral failure. It’s a habit, that causes a change to the brain, but that doesn’t make it an illness.

I very much agree with this. I dislike addiction being likened to something like cancer. It isn't the same at all

itsmyp4rty · 02/11/2023 07:13

I find comparing cancer and alcoholism much more offensive personally.

To me when people talk about 'their demons' I think of it like they are desperate to get away from something but the demons keep dragging them back or dragging them down. That's the picture it sets up in my head anyway and I don't find it offensive, more that it explains the constant battle.

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