To ask another 'class' question?

[PonyLo]

I know.
But i was reading another thread and it brought this to mind. People keep blithering on about it on MN, but the topic is often about signifiers such as clothes, house, job, schools, consumer choices and such.

So I had this thought - if a huge amount of people were just placed together in a big group wearing only a simple cotton dressing gown and no make up, could you tell what *social group they belonged to?

Like the bare bones?
My guess is that probably not! You might try to pick 'hair style' but I have found that varies wildly (I am middle class with a good amount of natural frizz). Which kind of confirms my suspicion that it's all about perception, rather than fact.

*'Social Group' is a much preferable description since it disqualifies attempts to use hierarchical judgements.

Either you can afford to get them fixed, and/or had parents who could pay to get them fixed when you were growing up - or you're stuck with them.

I think MC children are taken to the dentist from a very young age and watch their parents have check-ups, so unlikely to develop a fear of dentists.

Also-
https://fullfact.org/education/social-mobility-selective-education-era/

Ah yes. But absolutely no! I have crap teeth, i can't afford to get them done. I have crap teeth because i have crap mental health. None of it relates to class. All of it relates to a difficult upbringing.

@TutuDesi , I'm surprised they found no improved social mobility. My experience - only personal, but including hundred of peers - is that selective education did yield improved career outcomes for those of us from working or lower-middle class families.

The other side of the tiered system was that non-academic children could still get a decent grounding in maths & english, and choose other channels leading to skills & apprenticeships. They left at 15 but then went seamlessly into technical college, art school, apprenticeships & training schemes. Technical colleges also ran sixth-form schools for those who did want to do that - or the kids could go to one of the grammars.

I'm not surprised by what they said about parental influence. Parents who value education influence their children.

Even if i could afford btw, i don't think i could do it. Atm, i just don't think i'd be able. It's not just about money.

I'd probably have more money if I had better mental health, but I don't see how that changes my class from working to middle or upper. A middle or upper class person would have family money to spend on their teeth even if their health prevented them from earning the money themselves.

I take the point re. dental phobia but again, a middle or upper class person would probably be able to afford private therapy.

I was not trying to equate class with MH. I think i mentioned i was middle class. And that i have suffered. And i'm going to bow out now, because this is starting to upset me a bit.

@TutuDesi
"The same thing is not achieved in state comprehensives by “streaming” or sets. You only need to look at achievement scores and % of students leaving with qualifications and % students going on to further education to see that."

Actually, children of similar ability do only marginally better at grammar schools than they do at comprehensives. Grammar results look impressive because the low and middle achievers are weeded out.

That’s my point though, these are not children of “similar ability” that we are comparing if you go by scores on the 11+.

What we are comparing are children of differing exam prep tutoring, differing cultural capital, differing home lives and differing opportunities.

@TutuDesi "What we are comparing are children of differing exam prep tutoring, differing cultural capital, differing home lives and differing opportunities."
But those high achieving top set kids who go to the grammar school would do only very slightly less well if they went to the comprehensive...

Yes and I was saying what I could do to work it out in those circumstances....

Sorry, but i still don't get it.

The tattoo thing I think is quite outdated. I know plenty of MC folks with tattoos (as well as a CEO and people in high paying jobs) I also have one. Went to a red brick uni, Grammar School had a MC upbringing. Unless you mean where it's located. I'm not a fan of neck tattoos, but that's a matter of preference

My input would be accent. Not necessarily dialect, as I live in Edinburgh and know plenty of well off MC areas that don't have the typical RP Southern accent, but is more politely spoken if that makes sense

Also regularly go to the dentist regularly and have straight white teeth. Scale and polish every 6 months. Hygienist when need be

Even Princess Eugenie has a tattoo ffs 🙄

What an awful attitude to have.

And who cares what 'class' someone else is

I don't know if this has been mentioned but apparently there was a study that examined this issue and found that wealthier people could be identified just by their face

Can't do a clicky link but it was something like social class from facial cues ithink

When you say crap teeth what do y oi mean? Visibly rotten at the front or wonky?

Again, you are comparing MC kids with MC kids. Very little of a child’s performance on the 11+ is down to natural, innate ability or hard work.

Both I imagine.

I have worked with some colleagues who have grown up in wealthy households. I don’t think any of them had anything other than straight teeth. Mine were crooked and I was always self conscious of them until I ended up getting ortho treatment in my 20s.

Since when are 'teeth' a signifier of anything? They're teeth. Policies are policies, teeth are teeth
If you vote for 'teeth' , you're on a hiding to nothing.

Plenty of upper class people have wonky teeth. I know loads of very middle class with not perfectly straight teeth
I find lots of working class seem to have perfectly straight and overly white teeth now as lots have veneers or just whiten too much.

This is really interesting. The study removed all physical markers e.g. markers like tattoos mentioned on this thread. The focus was on eyes and mouth and the people being studied were told to maintain a neutral look while being photographed. People (68%) were able to tell how wealthy a person was from how happy they looked. Indicators of repeated happiness could be told from markers such as crow's feet. Those who had had a generally happy life looked the happiest and people with higher incomes (120K+) had less stress in their lives than poorer people and looked happier.

They then challenged the study by asking who would be most likely to get a job based on the photographs. They chose accounting as the role as it isn't perceived to be either higher or lower class. The faces of those wealthier people were perceived as as significantly more likely to get the job.

I'm not talking about veneers or false/fake teeth
Just straight teeth that have had orthodontic treatment to make them so if necessary.

Everyone knows someone who has perfect teeth or crooked teeth but I'm saying in general that those with a middle class background are more likely to have straight teeth.