AIBU to think this was wildly irresponsible?

[LylaLee]

I have a friend, "Ann". We used to be close but lost touch.

She and her partner have a 5 year old and she's just had a new baby.

She had put her 'birth journey' on Facebook. (Text, not video/pictures)

She and her partner have a third person in the relationship, "Carol", a woman who is her partner Bob's girlfriend. It was the three of them in the bedroom. (The 7 y/o was with a nanny in another part of the house).

She wanted a birth with no medical professionals, just the universe, incense etc.

Bob delivered the baby with Carol helping.

They wanted a lotus birth (where you don't cut the umbilical cord). But the placenta was not detaching, so after a few hours after the baby was born, they went to hospital (baby outside the body, placenta inside, umbilical cord still attached.)

None of the three are medical professionals. She's an artist, he's a musician and I don't know what the Carol does but Ann said she'd not a nurse/doctor/midwife when I asked.

There's nothing wrong with having a baby at home. Nothing wrong with the 7 year old being there.

But to have no medical person present is disgusting. She could have died, the baby could have died.

I said congratulations, but I feel disgusted by her selfishness. They could have left the 5 yo motherless.

FFS.

AIBU to be appalled? On mobile so I can't enable voting.

I would have thought that the deaths and injuries to mums and babies in the past were caused by the labour not progressing, baby's position, baby getting distressed, uncontrolled bleeding, need for Caesarian, etc. You haven't mentioned ANY of these things even though so many women even on MN will have had difficult labours requiring intervention or emergency procedures for these issues. Without today's medical care (monitoring, equipment, pain relief and surgery), a lot of women and babies really would have died or sustained life-changing injuries.

Bonkers, but what annoys me in these scenarios is that the health or the baby is obviously way, way, waaaay down the list of priorities for these parents.

Give birth whatever way you want to- doped up on as many pain meds as possible in hospital (like me), a water birth at home or anything in between. Up to the mother. But ffs having a trained and licensed medical professional there is the bare minimum.

I’d view actively planning an unassisted birth the same as not using an infant car seat- yeah, things might turn out ok but if they don’t the consequences could be catastrophic.

I had a post partum hemorrhage within half an hour of giving birth to my first due to some retained placenta. I'd have died within a quick medical response and a big blood transfusion. I was young, fit and healthy.
With my second it was shoulder dystocia and he got stuck. It was horrific. He'd have died if I was at home. I'm sure Bob and his girlfriend wouldn't have coped well with either of those births.
I'm not against home births, but there needs to be an actual midwife there.

How is any of this your business OP?

How many of us here have had babies in hospital and know that there would have been an undesirable consequence had they not had any medical assistance? Myself and DS1 would have most likely died with my first birth (breech). To intentionally decide to give birth without medical assistance is to go back to the medieval times, and putting them all (mother, baby and previous child) at risk of very negative outcomes. Of course YANBU!

They played a game of Russian Roulette and they're lucky it worked in their favour. I looked up a HB for my second but the indemnity form brought me out in a rash. As it happens, I had an unplanned, unassisted one as the labour progressed quite quickly despite midwife on the phone telling me I was fine and to stay put. We had our own Carol, a neighbour who ran in, and thankfully all went well as the fire brigade (!) arrived after the event. I felt guilty for days afterwards when I considered what could have happened.

Had she had any midwife appointments leading up to this?

Incredibly risky but ultimately her choice.

P.s I believe it is called a "freebirth" rather than a home birth.

They sound like weirdos and they’re bringing their children up in a completely fucked up dynamic where daddy has a girlfriend who is presumably part of the setup.

I think the birth is the least of it, but is clearly a demonstration of the kind of people they are.

I feel sorry for the children in this fucked up environment.

Yes it was a risk, no it is not 'disgusting'.

They were within the law. They made a choice you wouldn't make but unless we know the inside of someone's head it's not good to judge.

Sounds to me like they made an informed choice, were educated on what could happen and made the appropriate decision to seek help when things were showing signs that she needed help.

People don't free birth for fun without any planning or education on it. And in a straightforward pregnancy, uninterrupted birth is perfectly safe. It's a normal physiological event not a medical event, and they sought help when needed.

If she insisted on pursuing her plans for a lotus birth despite the placenta not coming away then yes, wildly irresponsible.

I don't buy that, freebirthing is irresponsible, for many things it would be too late by the time they worked out that they needed to get to the hospital. It's a selfish choice, choosing not to have help to prevent negative outcomes for yourself or your child.

This is a public forum. It's a place for people to discuss things.

Would your posting history show discussion only about scenarios you were directly involved in?

What a weird thing to say.

So I suppose this comes down to our attitude to personal risk and liberty. Is it a choice I would make? No. Did I have a good hospital experience? No. But the risk for me outweighs my rubbish experience in hospital (amazing birth, significant lack of care).

It’s a choice I wouldn’t make but a choice I’d defend their right to make.

I suppose it’s a more extreme version of whether you choose to cut out pate and soft cheese. It isn’t the law but it’s a personal risk you calculate. There will always be people on the extremes of the risk spectrum.

The difference between having a planned home birth attended by midwives or even a surprise fast labour in Tesco attended by paramedics isn't just that the HCPs have knowledge or skills that a lay person doesn't; it's also that they have equipment. Ergometrine and gelofusin that can save a woman's life in the event of a major haemorrhage. A bag valve mask that can save a baby's life or help to prevent severe brain damage in the event that the baby is born unresponsive. Magnesium sulphate for if the woman has an eclamptic fit post-birth.

Planning an unattended home birth is naive at best and catastrophic at worst. But as PPs have said, it's legal as long as the supporting partners don't try to act as a midwife or doctor. And as long as the woman is prepared to accept liability (legally but, more importantly, in terms of her own conscience and peace of mind) for whatever the outcome might be. This is an eye-opening read (I realise the OP makes no mention of her friend being postdates, but the point is that we all think poor outcomes are things that happen to other people - when of course we all are "other people" to everyone else): https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/she-wanted-freebirth-no-doctors-online-groups-convinced-her-it-n1140096

I don't know if she was under a midwife.

I agree with you op and I’m surprised by the arsey answers you got. I guess folks just fancying a pile on. Yes women gave birth for millennia without medical assistance, yes we sent kids down the mines, doesn’t mean it’s optimal or something we should now chose.

it’s taking a heightened risk with both mother and child’s life. Now if a mother chooses to risk her life further than necessary then that’s her own decision, but I don’t think it should be legal to allow her to risk the babies.

Freedom is about everyone being able to make their own choices based on their own values and their own risk assessments.

I am happy to live in a free society.

That assumes it’s an ideal world where every person is capable or willing of making decisions that are beneficial to and protect a child. Experience tells us that is not the case. And sadly children need protecting from their own parents in many instances. That doesn’t make our world a jail. It makes our society one that protects children.

no one needs to come over all braveheart. Running round forums shouting freedom. That baby could have died or been permanently damaged, a much higher risk than if they’d had medical attention.

so for me, yes I want a free society, but I also want protection for those who cannot protect themselves, the children, the vulnerable. To stop people posing them additional risks or harm. No one who is prioritising the child would chose to give birth with no medical assistance, and so yes, as a society we should protect those who cannot protect themselves.

YANBU and I can’t believe the number of people who think it’s just “their business” and you should not have an opinion. This is an innocent baby. It’s not just the parents affected if something goes wrong. There’s a newborn and also a 5 year old indirectly at risk of their decision.

Sadly though I expect it’s not the first and not the last time these parents will put their “freedoms” at the top of their priority list instead of the best interests of their children.

And yes as @Frasers points out, one of my pet peeves is when people say “you need to do your own risk assessment”. Lol. Many people struggle to interpret basic scientific information. What makes anyone think that your average member of the general public is in any way better equipped to do this than a medical professional because they’ve spent a few hours on Google and a few hugely biased Facebook groups or Reddit threads? Most people are hugely susceptible to confirmation bias and are not in a position to make an objective decision.

obviously they have an alternative lifestyle anyway but it really depends how much support they had during the pregnancy from Drs Midwifes etc. Plus of course how her other birth was as that is usually what they advise on if someone is high risk or not.
it is high risk in this case but obviously it was their choice not mine but if that is what they wanted to do that is their problem.

It does sound a bit bonkers that they didn't even call anyone for assistance. That's not a risk I would have taken.

That being said my 4mth old was a spontaneous home birth and by the time an ambulance got there (45 minutes later) he was out and all they had to do was cut the cord. With that sort of wait time if anything had gone wrong we could have both been dead. And the 999 operator assured us it was on a blue light response level too.

Midwife team came and cleaned up and then just left us at home anyway.

Just unfollow. You can do that and still show as friends on Facebook.

Agreed.