Page 3 | Tips for a school appeal

Hotandsunny · 2023-10-21T16:58:09+00:00

I'm trying to get my DD into a different school than she was offered. The appeal is coming up soon. Has anyone done one and can give me an idea of what to expect, any preparation I should do or any tips. Thanks ☺️

Original poster

Hotandsunny · 21/10/2023 22:53

prh47bridge · 21/10/2023 22:34

SIF = Supplementary Information Form - a form that applicants could send to the school to evidence their entitlement to priority on faith grounds.

There is already good advice on this thread. Assuming this is a secondary school, you need to show that the disadvantage to your child from not being admitted outweighs any problems the school will face from having to cope with an additional pupil. You've been given some good pointers towards things you can put forward to help with that.

Ok, thank you.

Why do they not tell you any of this when you appeal?

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LolaSmiles · 21/10/2023 22:59

The school she was offered wouldn't make any reasonable adjustments as she doesn't have a diagnosis as of yet.
There doesn't have to be a diagnosis to make the adjustments. Even with EHCP, for example, it's needs driven not diagnosis driven.

I don't intend for that to sound unsupportive by the way. I'm just thinking about what might come up at panel or what arguments might be made.

Original poster

Hotandsunny · 21/10/2023 23:20

LolaSmiles · 21/10/2023 22:59

The school she was offered wouldn't make any reasonable adjustments as she doesn't have a diagnosis as of yet.
There doesn't have to be a diagnosis to make the adjustments. Even with EHCP, for example, it's needs driven not diagnosis driven.

I don't intend for that to sound unsupportive by the way. I'm just thinking about what might come up at panel or what arguments might be made.

Oh, no that's very helpful. But yes, at the school she was offered they told me they would need proof of her needs.

At this school's open evening the head had clearly prepared nothing for his talk. In the couple of minutes ramble he made a joke about bullying...the school ha just had an Ofsted saying bullying was an issue!! When she was offered the place I tried to engage with the school as to how her needs could be met and they were just horrible. And I thought if they're this horrible to parents how horrible are they to the children?

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Russoooooo · 21/10/2023 23:48

Is she currently attending school? The allocated school?

PanelChair · 21/10/2023 23:48

I’d be grateful not to be tagged now on school appeals threads. There are several regular posters who give sound advice and I long ago ran out of new things to say, so have ‘retired’ as PanelChair.

That said, I agree with Lougle, Meditrina and prh47bridge.

OP - I understand why you feel the requirement to demonstrate regular church attendance is unfair, but (the school will argue and the panel will probably agree) it’s less unfair than any other judgment of an applicant’s Christian commitment, because it’s objective and measurable. By all means point out that you can’t regularly attend church because of your family situation and your son’s needs, but focus on all the other things that your daughter needs and which this school can provide.

The panel should try to put you at ease and listen to everything you say. They then have to weigh up whether your daughter needs a place at this school more than the school needs to stick to its published admissions number. If your friends can’t be there during the Zoom call, could a volunteer from your church?

Original poster

Hotandsunny · 22/10/2023 00:01

Russoooooo · 21/10/2023 23:48

Is she currently attending school? The allocated school?

No, she is at home.

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Original poster

Hotandsunny · 22/10/2023 00:02

PanelChair · 21/10/2023 23:48

I’d be grateful not to be tagged now on school appeals threads. There are several regular posters who give sound advice and I long ago ran out of new things to say, so have ‘retired’ as PanelChair.

That said, I agree with Lougle, Meditrina and prh47bridge.

OP - I understand why you feel the requirement to demonstrate regular church attendance is unfair, but (the school will argue and the panel will probably agree) it’s less unfair than any other judgment of an applicant’s Christian commitment, because it’s objective and measurable. By all means point out that you can’t regularly attend church because of your family situation and your son’s needs, but focus on all the other things that your daughter needs and which this school can provide.

The panel should try to put you at ease and listen to everything you say. They then have to weigh up whether your daughter needs a place at this school more than the school needs to stick to its published admissions number. If your friends can’t be there during the Zoom call, could a volunteer from your church?

Thank you for the help. And that's a good idea about a volunteer, thank you.

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Sticktoyourguns · 22/10/2023 00:57

I’ve been to school appeal 4 times, won 2 and lost 2. My advice would be do as much research as possible. @AvaCallanach‘s post is a good one, look at their arguments. Look at the Pan numbers and previous admissions and results. Study class numbers. It feels very daunting, I am a lone parent as well but the panel will try and put you at ease, the school or council will be arguing against you. I had 2 secondary appeals, won 1, lost one. I was thrown at the one I lost by them asking about the school that I had been offered. I was only made aware the day before that I had actually been offered a different school 🤦🏼‍♀️.It surprised me as everyone always says you are arguing as to why the school you want is suitable. Just be aware they can ask why you think the offered school is unsuitable.

My other appeal was for a religious school and I am not religious but my child was previously at a religious school. As a pp mentioned, there are 2 phases. I almost won at the 1st stage because they didn’t do a very good job of providing evidence that they were full. Unfortunately, it was accepted and it went to the second phase. I actually wasn’t happy with some of the questions, as they seemed to be enquiring, in a very roundabout way, whether I had been married to my child’s father. My arguments were very specific to my child’s needs and I received a call later that day to say that I had been successful.

it sounds like you have a good chance with your supporting evidence and get any more that you can. If you wished to you could also mention your health as well as your DC’s, the affects this has on your DD, and the fact that you believe this school will be able to offer her the pastoral support she needs. Sorry this has been so long and Good luck!

Itwasamemo1 · 22/10/2023 11:08

BeringBlue · 21/10/2023 20:56

I can't speak for every panel, but the ones I had for my daughter were more emotionally traumatic than my divorce hearings. In those, I at least felt the judge wanted to hear both sides, whereas I felt universally hated in the appeal panels and ended up in tears.
I can't give you any advice on what to say as I lost, despite following the advice of professionals.
It was a hideous process and I wish you luck.

I 100% understand. We thought we had a very solid reason for our appeal .
Appeal panel were awful,there was a reverend asking very dodgy questions about my daughters bedroom …yes really!
We lost our appeal but we were bloody determined because we had evidence that people had used false addresses and our daughter 100% deserved this GS .
Went to ombudsman and we bloody won 💪
It destroyed me mentally for many years TBH !
Hopefully your appeal will be ok .X

Original poster

Hotandsunny · 22/10/2023 11:32

Sticktoyourguns · 22/10/2023 00:57

I’ve been to school appeal 4 times, won 2 and lost 2. My advice would be do as much research as possible. @AvaCallanach‘s post is a good one, look at their arguments. Look at the Pan numbers and previous admissions and results. Study class numbers. It feels very daunting, I am a lone parent as well but the panel will try and put you at ease, the school or council will be arguing against you. I had 2 secondary appeals, won 1, lost one. I was thrown at the one I lost by them asking about the school that I had been offered. I was only made aware the day before that I had actually been offered a different school 🤦🏼‍♀️.It surprised me as everyone always says you are arguing as to why the school you want is suitable. Just be aware they can ask why you think the offered school is unsuitable.

My other appeal was for a religious school and I am not religious but my child was previously at a religious school. As a pp mentioned, there are 2 phases. I almost won at the 1st stage because they didn’t do a very good job of providing evidence that they were full. Unfortunately, it was accepted and it went to the second phase. I actually wasn’t happy with some of the questions, as they seemed to be enquiring, in a very roundabout way, whether I had been married to my child’s father. My arguments were very specific to my child’s needs and I received a call later that day to say that I had been successful.

it sounds like you have a good chance with your supporting evidence and get any more that you can. If you wished to you could also mention your health as well as your DC’s, the affects this has on your DD, and the fact that you believe this school will be able to offer her the pastoral support she needs. Sorry this has been so long and Good luck!

Thank you so much for all the advice. I had no idea until I read replies that I would be arguing against the school. It sounds like a court case where I'm representing myself. So daunting!

Do I get a copy of the school's arguments before the appeal so I know what I'm arguing against?

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Original poster

Hotandsunny · 22/10/2023 11:34

Itwasamemo1 · 22/10/2023 11:08

I 100% understand. We thought we had a very solid reason for our appeal .
Appeal panel were awful,there was a reverend asking very dodgy questions about my daughters bedroom …yes really!
We lost our appeal but we were bloody determined because we had evidence that people had used false addresses and our daughter 100% deserved this GS .
Went to ombudsman and we bloody won 💪
It destroyed me mentally for many years TBH !
Hopefully your appeal will be ok .X

Show quote history

I'm so sorry to hear about your experience. It was amazing you won in the end but such a shame you had to go through all that.

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ChocolateTea · 22/10/2023 11:46

We had an appeal years ago, for a grammar school. We had lots of evidence of primary school failures, and DC’s natural talent, but we also said how affected they were by their siblings autism, and how that had disadvantaged them compared to others.

im not sure what part won our appeal but we did it

it was incredibly stressful though, and I cried more than once in the appeal hearing as it was so overwhelming sitting opposite four people adament your child isn’t good enough and you’re being there is pointless

and our appeal years on proved right, DC is definitely in the right school for them and the school agrees

Original poster

Hotandsunny · 22/10/2023 11:50

I've just been reading the recent 'school inspection of a good school' and it actually mentions that the school is calm! I'm going to carry on reading. I'm also going to ask my Dd's play therapist to write something to back up her needs for somewhere small and calm.

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Original poster

Hotandsunny · 22/10/2023 12:07

Does anyone know how I find out how many pupils there are at the school and what the capacity is?

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Original poster

Hotandsunny · 22/10/2023 12:17

I've found a page on gov.uk it says the school has a capacity of 1030 and 967 pupils. So the school isn't full, but would I need to argue that the year group isn't full?

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Original poster

Hotandsunny · 22/10/2023 13:14

ChocolateTea · 22/10/2023 11:46

We had an appeal years ago, for a grammar school. We had lots of evidence of primary school failures, and DC’s natural talent, but we also said how affected they were by their siblings autism, and how that had disadvantaged them compared to others.

im not sure what part won our appeal but we did it

it was incredibly stressful though, and I cried more than once in the appeal hearing as it was so overwhelming sitting opposite four people adament your child isn’t good enough and you’re being there is pointless

and our appeal years on proved right, DC is definitely in the right school for them and the school agrees

That's so good that you won. It is so daunting and completely confusing too evidenced by more than 1 person saying they are not sure how they actually won. I guess you just have to present as much information as you can and hope for the best.

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Sticktoyourguns · 22/10/2023 14:26

Yes, just put your case together. You can def state that the Ofsted report mentions a calm environment and that is what is needed for your child. Part of my argument was that pastoral care and the way the school operated in a family type environment was what was needed to support my DC. It is quite well known that religious schools often offer better pastoral support. Also check out languages, music etc for special interests for your DC.
I seem to remember that we did get a copy of all the class numbers, pan etc prior to the appeal but it was some time ago. If you don’t have it and can’t find it online ask the council to provide it. It’s really important info.
It does sound daunting but ime you won’t be arguing directly against each other as such. They’ll state their case and you yours. Then the panel may ask questions. It very much depends on the situation and how strong the case is, if the school can’t argue that they are full you won’t even have to put your case forward. I know that doesn’t seem to happen that often but it almost happened to me.

@Itwasamemo1 well done to you! I thought I had a very strong case for the secondary school appeal that I lost. The fact that they offered me a school place elsewhere and only informed me the day before went against me as they asked questions about that school and the subjects available, which I obviously hadn’t had time to look up. We were in such a bad place back then and it almost broke us tbh. It made my DC’s situation so much worse. However, it wasn’t meant to be and school my child eventually got (again through appeal) worked out fantastically!

Original poster

Hotandsunny · 22/10/2023 14:26

@MrTiddlesTheCat Can you give me more information about the school being full. I have found out that that the capacity is 1060 and the number of pupils is 967 on .gov.uk

Does that count as the school is not full or could they say Y7 is full?

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Sticktoyourguns · 22/10/2023 14:33

AFAIK you need to look at class sizes for year 7 and if each class is full and whether they are already oversubscribed, due to appeal, and by how many. However, It’s a good thing if the school is not full.

Original poster

Hotandsunny · 22/10/2023 14:33

@Sticktoyourguns - what does PAN mean please?

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Original poster

Hotandsunny · 22/10/2023 14:36

@Sticktoyourguns - ok, thank you. I guess I could just ask the school?

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Original poster

Hotandsunny · 22/10/2023 14:38

After getting all your advice I think I have further grounds for appeal. The appeal is in a couple of weeks. Would I be able to ask to add to the form and give in the letter I get from DD's play therapist?

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prh47bridge · 22/10/2023 15:07

Hotandsunny · 22/10/2023 12:07

Does anyone know how I find out how many pupils there are at the school and what the capacity is?

Ask the school. They are required to answer any reasonable questions you ask to help you prepare for your appeal.

The numbers on gov.uk may be out of date. If the school is well under capacity, it makes it hard for them to claim that it is overcrowded, but they will still say that Y7 is full and that admitting another pupil will cause problems.

PAN = Published Admission Number, i.e. the number of pupils they admit in the normal admissions round.

You can always add to your case. However, if you have any new documentary evidence, submit it as soon as you can. If you try to use documents you haven't submitted in advance of the hearing, the panel may refuse to consider them or adjourn the hearing to another day. You don't want that.

Lougle · 22/10/2023 15:09

Hotandsunny · 22/10/2023 14:26

@MrTiddlesTheCat Can you give me more information about the school being full. I have found out that that the capacity is 1060 and the number of pupils is 967 on .gov.uk

Does that count as the school is not full or could they say Y7 is full?

It needs to be year 7 that has places to argue that they aren't full. However, you can weaken their general arguments about crowding in corridors, etc., if they are 93 places under capacity.

Lougle · 22/10/2023 15:10

X-posted with prh.