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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Tips for a school appeal

112 replies

Hotandsunny · 21/10/2023 17:58

I'm trying to get my DD into a different school than she was offered. The appeal is coming up soon. Has anyone done one and can give me an idea of what to expect, any preparation I should do or any tips. Thanks ☺️

OP posts:
Lougle · 21/10/2023 21:02

@Hotandsunny are you a lone parent? DD1 can't be left alone and can't cope with church so DH and I take it in turns. Would that be an option for you, so you don't miss out all the time?

Original poster
Hotandsunny · 21/10/2023 21:04

meditrina · 21/10/2023 19:34

The faith arguments won't carry weight. It's not a measure of the quality of your faith or depth of your commitment; the only things that can be considered are countable things like whether baptised and attendance (usually in person, but if you had been attending online, or receiving communion at home there might be an argument that you were wrongly categorised - have you got a statement from your parish priest attesting any form of attendance?).

Has your child had any form of additional support whilst at primary school? Is there anything about this school that makes it unusually good for pupils with autism? Does it have support structures that the offered school does not?

Do you have any written evidence from a professional about your DD's pastoral needs, so you can make an argument that the school you are appealing for has those things, whereas the offered school does not? (They are highly unlikely to take your unsupported word about this, unfortunately)

The church doesn't offer online services or communion at home. I do have a letter from the pastor detailing the situation.

My DD was on the SEN register and I had meetings with the SENCO. She also saw the play therapist weekly and we had lots of pastoral care support when she'd be upset going into school. The pastoral care at the school I want seems excellent (and according to friends who's DC went/go there it is). The uniform is good for sensory needs and the school is quieter/calmer and smaller. Not sure about support structures, I'll have a look at that.

I have a letter from the DC's ex-social worker detailing her needs. Unfortunately schools are not allowed to provide any evidence to support an appeal. I wonder if I should ask the play therapist?

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Original poster
Hotandsunny · 21/10/2023 21:05

Soontobe60 · 21/10/2023 19:40

Does your DS attend a church school?

DS is at college now. He didn't attend school atall due to his autism.

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Original poster
Hotandsunny · 21/10/2023 21:15

Lougle · 21/10/2023 19:54

As you present them, your arguments sound weak.

  1. Couldn't attend church - fair enough, but the whole point of SIFs is that they give a level of equality. Would you have got a place if you had been attending church? Do you attend any other faith based groups? I don't think it's discrimination, and even if it is, the panel isn't in a place to decide that it is.
  1. Sensory needs - most schools will give reasonable adjustments. My DD, for example, has a card which allows her not to wear a jumper between October half-term and Easter, when it's compulsory for other students.
  1. Small school and girls only. Do you have any medical evidence that this is needed? A panel can't agree with your assertion that an all girls school is 'better' or 'calmer'. Lots of people might prefer an all girls school, but you need something that shows that your DD needs it.

Overall (I used to sit on these panels) you might have a shot if the school doesn't offer any evidence that it is full, but if the school demonstrates that it's full, or there are other appellants with very strong cases, I think you'll struggle.

What is a SIF? Yes, we would have got a place if we were attending church. I don't attend any groups. I never could due to my DS. I couldn't leave him with a babysitter.

I spoke to the offered school about her sensory needs and they were unsympathetic. They even insisted to me she would have to wear a blazer and tie at the faith school! I have endless issues finding uniform that is comfy enough for her and her primary was very supportive. She'd have no chance in a school like the one we were offered.

A bigger co-ed school is noiser and chaotic. I'm not sure who'd argue against that. Unfortunately I don't have an autism diagnosis for her as yet but she is on the waiting list at the child development centre. Maybe her play therapist could help back this up. I do already have a letter from her ex-social worker.

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Original poster
Hotandsunny · 21/10/2023 21:16

xyz111 · 21/10/2023 20:06

I don't understand why your DS having autism is affecting your DD not being accepted?

I haven't been able to attend church due to my DS's autism. If I had been able to attend church she would have a place at the school.

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Charlingspont · 21/10/2023 21:16

It sounds to me like you have good paperwork (letter from pastor, letter from ex-social worker) to back up your case. I still think going in all guns blazing accusing the school of discrimination won't win your case - it's a church school (which is one of the reasons you say you want it) and so they must therefore apply their faith requirements stringently, otherwise everyone would just lie. But you have extrapolating circumstances, and a letter from the pastor.

(As a caveat, I personally don't agree with schools excluding children on any basis at all, be it religion or academic capability, or wealth, but I am trying to help you.)

Original poster
Hotandsunny · 21/10/2023 21:25

clerkhaton · 21/10/2023 20:18

You're rather late in the appeals process; is the school you'd prefer full now?

I've clerked admissions appeals and as a previous PP said, you clearly need to show why the preferred school is required and NOT why your allocated school is wrong.

I'm not sure I follow the autism reasons, but I am reading in the hoof so will come back!

I'll tag a couple of admissions gurus who may be able to help

@prh47bridge @PanelChair @admission

Unfortunately, I have a serious mental illness and have struggled a lot to find any support to help me with the appeal process. Therefore I missed the appeal date following school allocation and am doing an 'in-year' appeal. At the time of the school offers, DD was 65th on the waiting list, I think. Not sure where she is now. I'm told it's likely she will get a place eventually through the waiting list.

Thank you so much. I've tried to explain the autism argument. In all honesty I've found the whole process shrouded in mystery so don't know what arguments may be accepted so just said it as I saw it. While I remember the attendance lady from her primary school told me she could have been turned down because her attendance was low. She told me to let them know it was due to Long Covid and that could help. So I wrote that too.

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Original poster
Hotandsunny · 21/10/2023 21:27

Hohofortherobbers · 21/10/2023 20:22

Would it be better exploring ways the school could support your dad's additional needs educationally and pastorially beyond the jumper and blouse argument? Have you researched their SEN provisions and make case with those?

I spoke to the SENCO and pastoral teachers at the open evening, as well as the information given by the headteacher's talk. I also saw the headteacher in action when my DD was upset when doing the 11+ there. I'll look more into this though, thank you.

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AvaCallanach · 21/10/2023 21:28

We won our appeal for my DD.
We did base our appeal in part on her brother's needs - also autistic and had recently been through a very severe depression. We successfully argued that DD had been impacted by her brother's depression and how this had meant we had naturally had to prioritize his needs to keep him safe, so DD's needs had taken second fiddle, akin to a young carer she had to look after herself a lot more than we would have wanted. We argued she had become very reliant on the familiar parts of her life - her friends, her community - as resilience factors and that in taking her away from these factors we would be increasing her own risk of mental ill health in a temporamentally predisposed child and family. We also pointed out that the intake each year was a few above the given PAN and yet the school had maintained and improved exam results. We also showed that they chose to use larger classes in the higher sets in order to keep the lowest set small, so a small class size wasn't imperative for their good results. Overall we said the risk to her mental wellbeing by taking a child who has had a hard couple of years away from everything and everyone they know, was much higher compared to the risk to the school who showed they could still get good exam results and function and get a good OFSTED with numbers slightly over PAN.

I'm not sure what swung it, but they had 2 days of appeals hearings, and only 2 appeals were granted.

Original poster
Hotandsunny · 21/10/2023 21:28

Riverlee · 21/10/2023 20:28

I agree, give reasons why you want the school, not why the other schools are not good.

Years ago, the eleven plus exam website had a good section on appeals. Some of it will only be relevant to the 11+ but other parts may be relevant or useful (it’s years since I did my appeal).

Another tip I have is Evidence. The more evidence you can have to support your case the better.

Thank you.

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Original poster
Hotandsunny · 21/10/2023 21:32

LolaSmiles · 21/10/2023 20:33

You need to focus on why the school you want is the right option, not what is wrong with the other.

Schools have to make reasonable adjustments for SEND so one uniform being 'better' is unlikely to carry much weight. I'm not sure you'd be able to get away with saying the school you want us calmer because it's a girls school either. That seems to boil down to gender stereotyping.

There's a brilliant poster who knows admissions information inside out, prh47bridge who might be able to advise.

The school she was offered wouldn't make any reasonable adjustments as she doesn't have a diagnosis as of yet.

Well if I can't say it's calmer as it's a girls school I'll just say it is calmer. Because it is.

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Original poster
Hotandsunny · 21/10/2023 21:34

Bluevelvetsofa · 21/10/2023 20:36

You have to show what the school you want offers, that the offered school doesn’t. For example music tuition, or sport, or a language that she’s been studying or wants to study.

Otherwise what@Lougle has said.

Ok, well I could mention her favourite subject is art and they are a specialist art school. The Art department is amazing. Can't even remember what it was like at the other school, but not memorable anyway.

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Original poster
Hotandsunny · 21/10/2023 21:34

FFSWhatToDoNow · 21/10/2023 20:46

There’s a specific board for this where you can get expert advice, OP.

I'll have a look, thank you

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 21/10/2023 21:36

MrTiddlesTheCat · 21/10/2023 20:48

I used to sit on appeal panels. They have two steps (assuming the process hasn't changed). The first stage is 'is the school full' so will be about space, facilities, planned admission numbers, were places allocated according to criteria etc. If they can't prove they're full you win regardless of your circumstances. I've only sat on one appeal where the LEA failed to prove it.

The second stage is about the impact of having an extra child in a school that is already full. You have to argue why the need for your child to go to that school is greater than the need for the existing kids not to have another in their class. So just as an example, why should the other children have less teacher time and their education impacted in order for your DD to be a faith school when you're not actively practising that faith? That's not a judgment on your reasoning, I'm just using it as an example of what you'll be up against.

I am actively practicing, I just don't attend church. However, many DC got places that do not practice Christianity atall.

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Original poster
Hotandsunny · 21/10/2023 21:39

Thank you so much and I'm so sorry to hear that. I'm very nervous as I have Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder and awaiting assesment for autism too. If I'm not listened to I will get extremely upset. I don't know how I'm going to cope honestly.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 21/10/2023 21:41

Lougle · 21/10/2023 21:02

@Hotandsunny are you a lone parent? DD1 can't be left alone and can't cope with church so DH and I take it in turns. Would that be an option for you, so you don't miss out all the time?

Yes, I'm a lone parent.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 21/10/2023 21:45

Charlingspont · 21/10/2023 21:16

It sounds to me like you have good paperwork (letter from pastor, letter from ex-social worker) to back up your case. I still think going in all guns blazing accusing the school of discrimination won't win your case - it's a church school (which is one of the reasons you say you want it) and so they must therefore apply their faith requirements stringently, otherwise everyone would just lie. But you have extrapolating circumstances, and a letter from the pastor.

(As a caveat, I personally don't agree with schools excluding children on any basis at all, be it religion or academic capability, or wealth, but I am trying to help you.)

Yes, I understand. I suppose I'm not really saying they are being discriminatory but it feels like it. Like it feels a lot when you have a child with autism. At the end of the day if I'd been able to attend church she would have been given a place 😞
And yes, you have been very helpful, thank you.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 21/10/2023 21:49

AvaCallanach · 21/10/2023 21:28

We won our appeal for my DD.
We did base our appeal in part on her brother's needs - also autistic and had recently been through a very severe depression. We successfully argued that DD had been impacted by her brother's depression and how this had meant we had naturally had to prioritize his needs to keep him safe, so DD's needs had taken second fiddle, akin to a young carer she had to look after herself a lot more than we would have wanted. We argued she had become very reliant on the familiar parts of her life - her friends, her community - as resilience factors and that in taking her away from these factors we would be increasing her own risk of mental ill health in a temporamentally predisposed child and family. We also pointed out that the intake each year was a few above the given PAN and yet the school had maintained and improved exam results. We also showed that they chose to use larger classes in the higher sets in order to keep the lowest set small, so a small class size wasn't imperative for their good results. Overall we said the risk to her mental wellbeing by taking a child who has had a hard couple of years away from everything and everyone they know, was much higher compared to the risk to the school who showed they could still get good exam results and function and get a good OFSTED with numbers slightly over PAN.

I'm not sure what swung it, but they had 2 days of appeals hearings, and only 2 appeals were granted.

I'm so glad it worked out for you. We have been through some very difficult times and it just feels so hard DD not getting the school that will meet her needs. Her closest friends got places at this school. I'm having to home educate her now and I don't know how much my mental health can take.

OP posts:
Charlingspont · 21/10/2023 22:09

@AvaCallanach's post is really helpful. You could say that your DD has been negatively impacted by her brother's autism in that you could not attend church, and that that impact continues to be felt as you are having to homeschool and you do not feel that you can give her nearly as good an education through homeschooling as your preferred school can. Explain that this is tough on your own mental health, and that you need to be functioning in the best possible manner to support your family with the undoubted challenges they face. Check facts and figures as @AvaCallanach has too. And use your documentary evidence.

Lougle · 21/10/2023 22:11

The panel will listen to you @Hotandsunny . You can also take someone with you to support you.

Original poster
Hotandsunny · 21/10/2023 22:11

Charlingspont · 21/10/2023 22:09

@AvaCallanach's post is really helpful. You could say that your DD has been negatively impacted by her brother's autism in that you could not attend church, and that that impact continues to be felt as you are having to homeschool and you do not feel that you can give her nearly as good an education through homeschooling as your preferred school can. Explain that this is tough on your own mental health, and that you need to be functioning in the best possible manner to support your family with the undoubted challenges they face. Check facts and figures as @AvaCallanach has too. And use your documentary evidence.

Thank you, that's very helpful.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 21/10/2023 22:16

Lougle · 21/10/2023 22:11

The panel will listen to you @Hotandsunny . You can also take someone with you to support you.

That's good. It's not in person it's on Zoom. I did ask for it to be in person as I find Zoom very hard to follow, but they obviously don't do them in person. I don't really have anyone to support me as my support worker and care coordinator both left and haven't been replaced.

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Lougle · 21/10/2023 22:23

Do you have a friend or family member who can help you to stay calm if you think you aren't being listened to?

The panel will have your written representation and they will only want you to tell them anything that adds to that - they will read your papers thoroughly.

prh47bridge · 21/10/2023 22:34

SIF = Supplementary Information Form - a form that applicants could send to the school to evidence their entitlement to priority on faith grounds.

There is already good advice on this thread. Assuming this is a secondary school, you need to show that the disadvantage to your child from not being admitted outweighs any problems the school will face from having to cope with an additional pupil. You've been given some good pointers towards things you can put forward to help with that.

Original poster
Hotandsunny · 21/10/2023 22:51

Lougle · 21/10/2023 22:23

Do you have a friend or family member who can help you to stay calm if you think you aren't being listened to?

The panel will have your written representation and they will only want you to tell them anything that adds to that - they will read your papers thoroughly.

No. It's at a time when my friends will be at work.

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