Page 2 | DH’s become a bully- wwyd?

Flumpmallow · 2023-10-20T20:23:31+00:00

and it’s because of his job apologies double posting and posting here for traffic as I’m feeling quite low. Dh has a well paid job, he’s the major earner (for now but I’ve had a massive pay increase to kick in from the new year). This job has been the worst thing that’s ever happened to him. Yes it’s been more money, but slowly but surely his demeanour has changed. He’s started getting picked on and frankly bullied at work by someone in senior leadership. Long story less long, this person was peer to peer, and this person trod on DHs back, to credit for his project and secured the snr role and now seems to be out for blood. He was denied bereavement time off and basically had a bit of breakdown. Was signed off and has been having therapy. He’s back to work now and is handling work better BUT at home, he’s just like like a bubbling pot, ready to boil over. Very short tempered, takes any commenting on his behaviour as like a personal attack and sometimes he’s just so highly strung he’s unpleasant. when he’s in a good place, we talk about how he’s acting and how it’s ruining our marriage and is unfair to the kids. But I just don’t really know what to do. I also work full time so whilst I understand he’s in such a crap situation I do need him to an adult in the household. He does a fair amount around the house but he’s perceiving it as him doing everything. But it’s not the case, due to how much scrutiny he’s under at work, any time the kids have been ill or sent home from school, ive dealt with it. We split the meals and he does light cleaning like washing up and tidying but it’s me that does the full clean. But he thinks I do nothing. after a few weeks of calm, youngest had to be picked up from nursery today and I’ve used all my leave so he had to do it and he’s just been on edge since and then eldest’s post school tantrum has pushed him over the edge and he’s back to being a rattle snake does anyone have any words of wisdom?

Original poster

Flumpmallow · 20/10/2023 22:34

FloofCloud · 20/10/2023 22:33

Sounds like he needs to make a choice between the job or a less stressful job for him and a family

He’s actively looking but getting nowhere so he’s made the choice to leave but needs something else because as bad as it is, we need the cash, esp right now

OP posts:

kopitiamgal · 20/10/2023 22:39

I'm not making excuses for him but I don't think people realise how soul destroying things like this can be. Especially at senior levels, where you're more exposed and so much relies on reputation. It's like a frog in boiling water, only a matter of time before he gets managed out under some pretext or other. Dealing with bereavement as well. It's a lot to handle.

As much as you need the cash, is your husband's mental health really worth it? Can he take a pay cut?

It's clear that he's not really over it despite returning to work. If this was a physical illness would you tell him to just 'get over it'? To stay in work because he 'needs the cash'? Just telling him to 'get over it' isn't going to help.

housingplanningquestion · 20/10/2023 22:43

He just needs to leave that job asap. You can all eat beans on toast til you're earning more in January. Have a cheap Christmas. He shouldn't be in that environment. He sounds on the edge and really not coping. You're saying you 'need' the money, at the same time acknowledging a recent (implied work-related) suicide. If he shouts at work it will be down as gross misconduct and that really would make finding another job difficult. I don't think you are being as supportive as you think you are.

StBrides · 20/10/2023 22:44

@kopitiamgal has a point.
Don't get me wrong, his behaviour is totally unacceptable but in your shoes I'd be persuading him to be signed off sick long-term and use the time for therapy, rest and a job search.

It can take years to recover from severe workplace bullying if you don't get out in time.

Somewhereovertherainbowweighapie · 20/10/2023 22:49

I would ask him to move out for a while. You can’t live like that.

Original poster

Flumpmallow · 20/10/2023 22:54

kopitiamgal · 20/10/2023 22:39

I'm not making excuses for him but I don't think people realise how soul destroying things like this can be. Especially at senior levels, where you're more exposed and so much relies on reputation. It's like a frog in boiling water, only a matter of time before he gets managed out under some pretext or other. Dealing with bereavement as well. It's a lot to handle.

As much as you need the cash, is your husband's mental health really worth it? Can he take a pay cut?

It's clear that he's not really over it despite returning to work. If this was a physical illness would you tell him to just 'get over it'? To stay in work because he 'needs the cash'? Just telling him to 'get over it' isn't going to help.

Edited

To be clear it’s not a case of telling him to get over it or ‘life’s hard, get a helmet’- I completely understand how horrible it is to feel like you can’t do right from wrong and to basically feel the sword of Damocles above your head.

i wish, he could just sack it off and walk away but we simply can’t afford it even with the soon to be increase in mine.

it’s more that the pressure cooker and the snappy and shoutyness has to stop because the damage will be irreversible

OP posts:

Original poster

Flumpmallow · 20/10/2023 23:04

housingplanningquestion · 20/10/2023 22:43

He just needs to leave that job asap. You can all eat beans on toast til you're earning more in January. Have a cheap Christmas. He shouldn't be in that environment. He sounds on the edge and really not coping. You're saying you 'need' the money, at the same time acknowledging a recent (implied work-related) suicide. If he shouts at work it will be down as gross misconduct and that really would make finding another job difficult. I don't think you are being as supportive as you think you are.

We cannot pay our mortgage and childcare as much as it sucks we simply cannot afford it on my wage alone. He’s been applying for jobs for 6 months and nothing. We simply can’t manage it. Our mortgage doubled lately

OP posts:

kopitiamgal · 20/10/2023 23:15

Flumpmallow · 20/10/2023 22:54

To be clear it’s not a case of telling him to get over it or ‘life’s hard, get a helmet’- I completely understand how horrible it is to feel like you can’t do right from wrong and to basically feel the sword of Damocles above your head.

i wish, he could just sack it off and walk away but we simply can’t afford it even with the soon to be increase in mine.

it’s more that the pressure cooker and the snappy and shoutyness has to stop because the damage will be irreversible

Show quote history

Again, with the caveat that he was completely normal, sane, kind and loving before all of this. If it was that easy to just stop being 'snappy and shouty' don't you think he'd have done it already? You declare that it 'has to stop' but how are you going to achieve this? His behaviour is a result of his environment and doesn't appear to be something he's doing consciously as he's not himself. You say that you understand but you don't really. He is not the same person.

If you say you cannot afford to lose the money, or even for him to take a pay cut then you'll just to put up with this.

The bigger problem is that, as much of a disaster a loss of money would be. What are you going to do when your husband can no longer cope, has another breakdown and/or is managed out? That hit will be much, much harder to recover from. As @StBrides said the effect of workplace bullying can cause long term damage.

I'm not saying he has to sack it off now. But what if you make, say a 3 month, 6 month, plan for him to leave?

Of course you can try therapy etc but there's very little it can do if he sits in it for an hour a week then spends 8 hours + a day in such a toxic work environment. It's like fixing a leaky ship with sticky tape.

The only way this can be fixed is for him to leave.

Vocaladvocaat · 20/10/2023 23:52

It sounds like a nightmare. He desperately needs to move job, even if he gets a career coach. I’ve seen something similar - everyone knew it was going on and was afraid to say anything. But, he needs to accept your support and change his behaviour no matter how stressed he is.

Does he get any time with no stress? Maybe that would help?

Original poster

Flumpmallow · 20/10/2023 23:59

kopitiamgal · 20/10/2023 23:15

Again, with the caveat that he was completely normal, sane, kind and loving before all of this. If it was that easy to just stop being 'snappy and shouty' don't you think he'd have done it already? You declare that it 'has to stop' but how are you going to achieve this? His behaviour is a result of his environment and doesn't appear to be something he's doing consciously as he's not himself. You say that you understand but you don't really. He is not the same person.

If you say you cannot afford to lose the money, or even for him to take a pay cut then you'll just to put up with this.

The bigger problem is that, as much of a disaster a loss of money would be. What are you going to do when your husband can no longer cope, has another breakdown and/or is managed out? That hit will be much, much harder to recover from. As @StBrides said the effect of workplace bullying can cause long term damage.

I'm not saying he has to sack it off now. But what if you make, say a 3 month, 6 month, plan for him to leave?

Of course you can try therapy etc but there's very little it can do if he sits in it for an hour a week then spends 8 hours + a day in such a toxic work environment. It's like fixing a leaky ship with sticky tape.

The only way this can be fixed is for him to leave.

Show quote history

He had his moments before but no where near to thins extent, especially with the kids. He was never frankly this abusive until he joined this company (even before the bullying started)

the plan is applying for other roles but nothing is landing. I took a higher paid job to allow him to get a lower paid job but he’s not getting anywhere there either due to too much experience

OP posts:

Hankunamatata · 21/10/2023 00:01

If he isn't still in counselling he needs to be back weekly if not twice a week. He needs to offload all the emotions.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 21/10/2023 00:35

Could he get contracting work for 3-6 months to give him breathing space.
The Union need to deal with some of the comments like clammy hands - if it’s a long term medical condition then that shouldn’t be raised as a performance matter. He should matter of factly ask them to put in writing that they consider a medical issue a performance issue etc. Accent is a very dodgy thing to pick on as it risks implying staff with a foreign accent would be regarded less well.

The truth is that there is no good solution but leaving so he may need to look for other options more flexibly.
I don’t think trying to reason with him will get you very far because he is in a hyper alert state right now. Ideally, he needs to find a better stress outlet like sport to burn off the adrenaline. Thinks like meditation can help but he probably has the attention span of a gnat.

In practical terms all you can do is protect yourself. If he is being unpleasant just walk away. Do whatever you can to make your life easier.
In terms of finances see if you can build up a bit of a buffer so you could survive a short period without him working as knowing that he could escape if it got unbearable.
Bullying at work is a common and horrible situation and often very badly handled.

housingplanningquestion · 21/10/2023 01:15

If he's not working then you wouldn't need to pay for childcare. There's always contracting, or 'people per hour' websites. Or signed off sick. Or working in Waitrose (doesn't need to put it on his CV). Obviously a decent sideways move would be ideal, but it's not realistic currently: he's failing interviews, must likely because he has anxiety, self doubt, shame and hyper vigilance rolling off him. I think you really need to adjust your expectations and definitions of what is a 'good outcome' here. I think, understandably, you are reluctant to face how bad this situation really is. But by locating the problem and solution within him, it is just putting more pressure on him, and is going to make turning this round more slow and difficult.

Vocaladvocaat · 21/10/2023 05:42

As you have this evidence, can he go to HR with it and complain about bullying?

airforsharon · 21/10/2023 07:54

housingplanningquestion · 21/10/2023 01:15

If he's not working then you wouldn't need to pay for childcare. There's always contracting, or 'people per hour' websites. Or signed off sick. Or working in Waitrose (doesn't need to put it on his CV). Obviously a decent sideways move would be ideal, but it's not realistic currently: he's failing interviews, must likely because he has anxiety, self doubt, shame and hyper vigilance rolling off him. I think you really need to adjust your expectations and definitions of what is a 'good outcome' here. I think, understandably, you are reluctant to face how bad this situation really is. But by locating the problem and solution within him, it is just putting more pressure on him, and is going to make turning this round more slow and difficult.

Funny you mention Waitrose - a friend was in a hellishly stressful job that took a real toll on his physical & mental health. He also has a wife & dcs. Long story short, he now works at Waitrose, after years at high flying/professional level in a completely different field, and loves it. Crucially, the improvement in his health and consequently home life is significant. Yes, he now earns less but he's been able to take on more at home (wife also works full time) so they're both in a better place. Sometimes a perceived step 'down' is actually a step up.

Jl2014 · 21/10/2023 08:29

Is he logging all the behaviour at work? You say there are emails etc?

Why can’t he raise a formal internal grievance? If it’s a large company they will have a process for this.

Original poster

Flumpmallow · 21/10/2023 08:47

housingplanningquestion · 21/10/2023 01:15

If he's not working then you wouldn't need to pay for childcare. There's always contracting, or 'people per hour' websites. Or signed off sick. Or working in Waitrose (doesn't need to put it on his CV). Obviously a decent sideways move would be ideal, but it's not realistic currently: he's failing interviews, must likely because he has anxiety, self doubt, shame and hyper vigilance rolling off him. I think you really need to adjust your expectations and definitions of what is a 'good outcome' here. I think, understandably, you are reluctant to face how bad this situation really is. But by locating the problem and solution within him, it is just putting more pressure on him, and is going to make turning this round more slow and difficult.

I’ve said contracting to him and he’s shut it down.

quitting with nothing in place and giving up our nursery place that there was a 9 month wait list for is less than ideal as there are no other childcare providers in the area and even mortgage and bills I can’t sustain alone. I don’t think he’d lower himself, in fact he’s said he won’t, he thinks it’s letting the other person win

OP posts:

Fahbeep · 21/10/2023 08:47

I've been in a similar position to your husband. Wasn't my best self while it was happening. Is he seeking support for his MH? It is horrible to be in his position but you are right that as it has affected his behaviour at home, the onus is on him to change something asap. He may not be able to change the bully at work, but he can change how he feels about it, and how it relates to his self esteem (whether he accepts the bullying as something he has to carry). It's hard, but it is possible to let go and thus be more resilient while finance dictates that he has to stay in his current job. That may help at home, but inevitably this won't get better until he changes job. He could also collect evidence and raise a grievance at work. This wont help his career there, but if he is leaving at some point, there's no harm in knocking the halo off the bully.

Original poster

Flumpmallow · 21/10/2023 08:52

Jl2014 · 21/10/2023 08:29

Is he logging all the behaviour at work? You say there are emails etc?

Why can’t he raise a formal internal grievance? If it’s a large company they will have a process for this.

The emails are more the contradiction in terms of feedback, so his line manager will say good job on so via email and so but then the snr manager (former mate) will feedback verbally a whole host of really nitpicking comments and then all of a sudden he’s told to disregard the previous feedback and given a list as long as your arm to ‘seriously work on’. It’s been brought up but he’s told hey that’s working in a dynamic environment for you.

the sneaky underhanded things about accent and hands have been verbal feedback and this person is very clever but he feels like a grievance when he’s still working there with nowhere to go will make life more difficult for him

OP posts:

Fahbeep · 21/10/2023 08:54

Maybe you could do an intervention of some sort at home as well to explain to him how his low mood is harming you and the kids. And to ask him to seek support/counselling to deal with the feelings he is having. I'm trying to be constructive, but would say that beyond support, the onus is on him to change. It's not your job to fix him, and truthfully, only he can sort this out. As it's him that has to change.

VeterinaryCareAssistant · 21/10/2023 08:55

He needs to grow up and leave his work at work and be the adult you need him to be at home.

He has two choices, quit his job and look for a different one or carry on in his job and suck up the atmosphere whilst looking for a different job.

He shouldn't be taking it out on you and your children. It's not your fault he can't stand up for himself.

Fahbeep · 21/10/2023 09:05

VeterinaryCareAssistant · 21/10/2023 08:55

He needs to grow up and leave his work at work and be the adult you need him to be at home.

He has two choices, quit his job and look for a different one or carry on in his job and suck up the atmosphere whilst looking for a different job.

He shouldn't be taking it out on you and your children. It's not your fault he can't stand up for himself.

There's an undercurrent of "man-up" to this advice that is unhelpful. Male identity and pride is often tied up in old fashioned, deeply embedded ideas about providing and success in the workplace. It is absolutely right that OP's DH is the one that has to change, and must address the reasons for his behaviour and not take his low mood out on her or the children, but unless the OP wants to leave him (always a legitimate option), pushing the bruise by telling him to suck it up is unlikely to stimulate the change she wants and may make things worse.

Hadalifeonce · 21/10/2023 09:09

My DH was bullied in a former job, very similar with micromanaging, verbal changes in instruction, deadline changes, undermining. We spoke with an employment lawyer, they told him, when things are said, not written, to immediately email back reiterating what had been said, to get the other person to either confirm or deny.

When the grievance was investigated, they found for DH in 10 of the 12 points.

Vocaladvocaat · 21/10/2023 09:09

airforsharon · 21/10/2023 07:54

Funny you mention Waitrose - a friend was in a hellishly stressful job that took a real toll on his physical & mental health. He also has a wife & dcs. Long story short, he now works at Waitrose, after years at high flying/professional level in a completely different field, and loves it. Crucially, the improvement in his health and consequently home life is significant. Yes, he now earns less but he's been able to take on more at home (wife also works full time) so they're both in a better place. Sometimes a perceived step 'down' is actually a step up.

Show quote history

The problem is, I am sure, letting the bullies win. For him to lose everything because someone has done him dirty is not a step up, it's a humiliating defeat. Unfair too, as they took credit for his work. Why should he lose everything???

Treebark · 21/10/2023 09:17

The problem is, he's kinda trapped isn't he? He can't find a new job to go to, personal pride won't let him go on long term sick leave, and you've the house / childcare / bills to juggle.

Something needs to give.

In this big company, is there any internal transfers? If he went to MH conscious HR and said "this is damaging my mental health, I cannot work with this person who I feel is bullying me, what are you going to do because my working environment is intolerable" would they be able to arrange a lateral transfer?

In fact, maybe his only option right now is to make this HRs problem. "My big boss keeps undermining me etc and this is destroying me. I want an investigation, him to be moved departments, this is not a working environment which is fulfilling it's duty of care. Big boss needs more management training, needs training on how to give feedback, my mental health is suffering because of verbal comments about my fucking sweaty hands FFS and he keeps denying it so can you put in place a structure where he isn't able to do this". If I were truly stuck, this is what is so. I'd weaponise my experience

Otherwise the other option is to explode your life, and remove the things which mean that you can't live without his (presumably high) salary. Move house, pull the kids out of daycare, get him to take any low stress job.

I wouldn't frame this as DH bullying though. I think it's more that he's so fucking miserable and angry that it's oozing out of him at every point. And yes, that angry shouldn't and mustn't be directed at you, but where can he be angry? If he feels that way and he's stuck in a situation where he's on edge, he's waiting to be kicked again, I could see it imploding and well. It sounds intense - you feel certain that he isn't suicidal? (God, I'm sorry to ask cos it sounds so dramatic but I have such a strong feeling this man is trapped)