Private school vs private anything educational

[stopitstopitnooow]

If you have an issue with private schools, why? Do you have an issue with:

Buying houses in expensive catchment areas
Extracurricular activities such as music lessons, swimming, sports coaching
Tutors; language, 11+, GCSE

(Also, private healthcare, dentists, opticians)

I honestly don't understand the angst when it comes to private schools. Let people spend their money however they see fit.

@Bornonsunday- it's shit that you ds isnMt getting the support he needs-can he actually go and talk to the Head? A student in his office might concentrate his mind a little!

There is loads of information online though-he should be able to find everything he needs. He shouldn't need to-but he can.

The schools in my town do this - a consortium of 4 state and 2 private who run university information and subject enrichment together. It's often at the private schools as they have more space but lots of students from all the schools attend. TBH I doubt that they'd get visits from e.g. Oxbridge outreach if it were just to the private schools.

Maybe ... he has already been massively self motivated to get fantastic grades. But my wider point stands that privilege us about more than academics. Kids from state schools can have a massive uphill battle to get into oxbridge.

Imagine all the private schools were turned into state schools.

But that’s an entirely different proposition. And also, not what will happen.

Well I think it is probably too simplistic to look at state vs private on this. Kids at some state schools have a massive uphill battle to get in to Oxbridge but others are in a very privileged school and home environment where the barriers are far lower. Some of the schools with the highest number of Oxbridge offers are state schools (https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-oxbridge-files-which-schools-get-the-most-pupils-in1/) and the acceptance rate for state and private pupils is very similar, particularly once you note that a higher proportion of state applications are for the most competitive courses.

It's another example of the point that's been made a lot on this thread i.e. that there are huge variations between state schools and many middle class parents are buying privilege via catchment rather than paying the fees.

Of course private school kids will have a higher percentage receiving tuition because the vast majority of them have middle class educated parents compared to state schools where it’s more mixed socially . It didn’t need the Sutton trust to tell us that.

And you if look specifically at the same type of middle class parents ( or to some extent educated immigrant working class parents) who send their kids to state schools, a larger proportion of those will also be paying for tuition than those in state schools who have less educated/affluent parents . The key thing is the parents.

And yes some who live in a good catchment still pay private, but it doesn’t erase the fact that many families used their resources to buy houses in good catchment areas?? I can only imagine house prices would go up in those catchment areas if a larger amount of parents needed to access those “good” schools.

in this day and age, youtube and google should at least give you a road map, i know oxford itself has many videos for people wanting to apply to eg oxford

most impressive, where there is a will and a way.

I'd like to hear more about sets in the UK. Because we didn't have that in my school in Ireland. I don't know about it.

Does the teacher place the student in the set?

In my school in Ireland, we didn't have set at all for the first two years of secondary school. All children of all abilities were in every class. Then from third to sixth year , I could choose my own set. The teacher didn't put me in it.

There were three sets to choose from, I could choose to do higher, medium or lower maths for example. They were called honours, pass, and foundation classes.

It was my choice which level to put myself in.

How do sets work in the UK?

How do sets work in the UK?

Not like that! Decided by the teacher with some element of discussion with pupils and parents if needed. The alternative would have created riots amongst the overly competitive parents at my school..

Generally speaking in my experience, sets in year 7 are determined largely by SATS results and reports from primary school. That's why I always jump up and down in outrage when people say "Oh, SATS are meaningless." They are then adjusted after assessments.

Thirty years ago I wanted to apply for Oxbridge and my average/poor state comprehensive said they couldn't help and hadn't had anyone go for years. My parents had left school at 15 and couldn't help. So I wrote to the admissions office (pre-internet), got the prospectuses and paper copies of past entrance exams, applied to an open day targetted at people from schools like mine. I worked at my subject, got recommended reading from the library and badgered my teachers to look at my entrance paper answers. I got in.

That is really impressive. A shame nobody was able to support you, but what drive and determination! My grammar school didn't select me as Oxbridge material, so I went to see the Head and told her I wanted to apply. I thought I was being determined, but I'd never have had the gumption to do what you did in your situation!

Does anyone think that getting rid of private schools would mean that the quality of education in state schools would really improve?

If removing private education didn’t result in state schools improving, then it is all about removing opportunities from some kids. We should be looking to level up, not drag down. The things that make private schools better should be aspired to by state schools, not removed from existence. If someone chooses a private school because it has small class sizes, then let’s aspire to have more teachers and smaller classes in state schools, not remove the private option. Private schools should be targets for state schools to achieve- rather than railing against them, instead ask your MP why can’t my school be like that. Give more money for education, improve teaching standards, encourage better links to the local community for work placement opportunities and networking.

@paintingvenice I would like there to be no private schools, but I don't think it's doable. Whoa I do want and which is doable, is to stop them having the financial benefits given to charities.

Does anyone think that getting rid of private schools would mean that the quality of education in state schools would really improve?

Yes.

If Rishi Sunak and Theresa May and David Cameron and the editor of the Daily Mail = had to send their children to state schools, do I think state education would be better funded? Er, yes.

If Rishi Sunak and Theresa May and David Cameron and the editor of the Daily Mail = had to send their children to state schools, do I think state education would be better funded? Er, yes.

I don't think the problems in state schools are primarily down to funding. I think one of the most important issues currently is behaviour - it is now very difficult to exclude pupils, and they know they can do what they like.

@paintingvenice
I think it is much more about levelling down. Just people don’t want to say that overtly though people will talk about removing unfair advantages.

A model of forcing more people to use an inferior system by shutting off a better alternative is just such an odd way to try to improve the overall system. It’s like shutting down Oxford and Cambridge to improve the quality of UK research or banning private gyms and swimming pools to improve UK sport and fitness.

@DuesToTheDirt
I think there are structural issues with the state model which means it will never overall compete with private provision. I agree that not easily being able to exclude pupils is part of that but also not being answerable to parents in the same way as private schools. Most parents won’t pay for a service which isn’t delivering particularly when there’s a free alternative so to survive private schools have to provide a good service (some don’t but it’s hard for those schools to survive). The state sector doesn’t really have much incentive to meet the needs of pupils on an individual basis and it ends up being one size fits all. I think a fully comprehensive model with little choice of school doesn’t help either.

If people were serious about improving state education then addressing some of the structural issues might actually help. But people who are ideological opposed to private schools usually don’t like selective education, pupils being excluded and on a broader level free market economics so I don’t really see there being much change even though there is broad agreement that the state sector isn’t currently good enough.

More funding may sort out issues with buildings and allow higher teacher pay and better retention etc which would help a bit. There are really brilliant prep schools priced at £9k a year though which is not much over the state budget.

Yep funding doesn’t solve everything. I once taught at a school in Liverpool that was second to last in academic league tables. It has been rebuilt and had state of the art facilities etc.

it was the worst school I’d ever taught in and all the teachers said they’d never seen anything like it too.

a large proportion of the children were incredibly disruptive aggressive and violent. I was told to be careful in disciplining the kids as a lot of them had “gangster” parents so i ignored the teenage boy who told me he’d smash my face in.

I finished my day there and told the agency not to send me there again and they said “yeah everyone says that after one day”

Exactly this. A lot of the problems in state schools run far deeper than a lack of funding. Increasing funding isn’t going to stop children messing around, being violent and generally not caring about their education. In our local area, the best resourced schools seem to have more problems.

No. What happens in socialist states is that you have good public provision for the elite and rubbish for the rest of us.

Education is far too important to be nationalised.

We scrape together the money for 2 out of 3 of our children to go to private school as they have specific learning difficulties and (dyslexia, DCD, ADHD and NVLD) ugh, a real mixed bag and despite being bright they were falling behind year on year with little or no support in an environment that exacerbated it, eg 30 in a class, loads of distractions and teachers who were not interested in supporting them. I'm left leaning and we were both state educated. We were desperate and stuck.

We are fortunate to have some help from grandparents towards fees and have a car that's falling to bits and go on camping holidays. The private schools' my kids go to are not elitist, they are just smaller with reduced class sizes, and a nurturing ethos who are good with learning issues.

We have no spare money whatsoever and go without in order to do this and I thank my lucky stars that we are fortunate to be able to do this... it makes me feel so sad at Labour gunning for private schools, if my kids could cope in state schools I would send them!! My third child is state educated and very happy but has no additional needs thankfully as we could not send them.

I feel privileged as I know we have food on the table and it's a first world issue for us, however I am sick of the sweeping judgements about those who choose private school 🙁

Weather its state or private, the knowledge and information is still the same, and people can teach themselves the knowledge rather than just relying on a teacher

I’m really not sure of the logic of this. There are plenty of powerful people who do want to improve state schools, people who, like you, are ideologically opposed to them. Why can’t it be done? Citing that handful of Tory names as the reason why state schools remain poor makes no sense. For one thing, Londoners with money would have no trouble at all finding a decent state school anyway!

This is true.

But still very negative for the Govt to nationalise and destroy the system.

Whilst a parent can teach/child can read all that’s needed to DO most jobs, teaching well enough to get the best credentials to GET the jobs is a full time job and nearly impossible for one person.

How ?

One would presume they would use the ££ for extra tutors etc rather than just ploughing more £ into the school on the theory that it will raise standards overall, plus then there's the issues of behaviour and a conductive learning environment that can also limit learning potential