To think I’m being judged unfairly?

[contactme]

I’m 27, in a mid management role, and a woman. I often get challenged at work by people I manage, as if I don’t deserve to be there (some applied for my role but was unsuccessful).

Also outside of my team, some people assume I’m less senior in grade than I am and automatically revert to the nearest man, who then comes to me. Inevitably the men gets credit for my work.

My career path was retail management alongside university, graduating with a statistics degree, then working as a data analyst. I got promoted as a manager in data analysis, then recently promoted again as a senior manager. It’s this role where I’m getting a lot of unnecessary attitude.

I know my job well, so feel like I’m being unfairly treated based on my age/appearance/gender. Or aibu? I’m not sure how I can navigate this as feeling undermined

Please see my “set a boundary” thread. This is EXACTLY what I am talking about. Maybe the polite way to navigate it is to pretend surprise that people think you don’t deserve it with a few little put downs. Either way, good luck! Own it and well done!

And you are indeed the problem

Dick

Very similar role very similar issue mostly from men

Today a man, who doesnt work in data, decided to mansplain to me what data was, even though I was on the call as the data expert

Drives me mad and means I have to work way harder than my male counterparts to get things done

It's not your age though OP unfortunately, both me and my female boss are older than you and still encounter the same issues

Whilst that wasn't a very nice comment there may be something that you can take from it. People judge other people - how else can we navigate life? They will judge you on your results, your performance, the way you communicate - and a raft of other things. So your communication style is something that you need to think about. (I get that this is MN not a work email - but the point stands)

Also, the way you treat others, the way you dress, the results your whole team gets and how they feel as a team - all important.

It may be that they initially judge you on your age and sex - but that should last all of five minutes. Once they realise you're good at what you do that shouldn't be a problem.

It may be that they initially judge you on your age and sex - but that should last all of five minutes. Once they realise you're good at what you do that shouldn't be a problem.

that's nice and in some companies absolutely true and in other companies very naive, it depends on the culture

Yet she is a senior manager and therefore does write like one. In data, words aren’t generally the focus and actually, her writing is no different to the data analysts I work with.

You have to be firm but polite op. In meetings, “oh Sam, I can help you with that with my senior manager analyst hat on.” If someone speaks rudely “ I’m going to ask you to consider your tone and how that just came across. In answer to your challenge xyz,” I’m senior leadership you need to ensure your calm presence is apparent and you can be really clear on your boundaries.

Specific team members, start with a quiet word “I’ve noticed a few times you’ve undermined me in meetings. I’m not okay with that. Happy to talk things through but not be put down in an unprofessional way. I really don’t want your behaviour towards me to distract from the great work you do.”

a gentler approach is to take control of your team by speaking to them about their work, letting them lead the conversation while you actively listen and give praise/encouragement. They need to see your behaviours in a leadership style. You should be doing that but you may need to emphasise it and not let those around you doubt yourself. I’m 41 now but was editor of a local paper at 24 and that was tough. Much easier now.

In what way?

I'm a young(er) woman in a male-dominated technical role OP with the added challenge of not having a relevant degree so I get how you're feeling.

If you have been promoted twice it's clear that other people respect your work.

a) Who are the people in other teams who disrespect? Is just one other team? One department with a backwards culture?

b) How is a man getting credit for 'your work'? As a senior manager you shouldn't really be doing any 'hands on' work your team do it but you make strategic decisions and decide what work to be done etc.

If people revert to some man - when they should be reverting to you - surely your team's response should.be ' ask my boss'? When the man comes to you why do you not reply to the query yourself if relevant instead of relaying it through said man?

People assume I'm not important but I correct them ASAP especially when they try to mansplain. They get the message.

Also people all know the org hierarchy.. I make sure I am known so I'm not mistaken for someone more junior anyway.

I really don’t want your behaviour towards me to distract from the great work you do.”

Eek, this will not go down well and is a threat - please do not say this.

OP, have you asked for management courses, they should be available to you

That’s your bias coming out, I’m afraid. There is no set way for “senior managers” to write. I am a senior manager in data - it’s a technical and leadership role. My writing style at work is technical and concise. I write well enough to change the business’s course of action. It’s not my written work that’s a problem regardless, but thanks for showing the type of strange attitude I’m up against!

That’s really poor!

I’m noticing bits of this. One of my direct reports impresses people easily but as I get to know his working style and validate his work, he gets things wrong all the time and causes extra problems for stakeholders. He’s literally not as good as people think but it’s interesting to see the extreme praise he gets externally, especially compared to the women on my team.

Ah yes I frequently get told the male data analysts are quicker and better than the female data analysts, despite the fact the actual data doesn't support this

It doesn't necessarily get any better but I think it does help to get to the point where you don't give a fuck and just do things how you want to

Having said that some firms are better than others so if yours is bad it may be worth considering a move

What a load of rubbish. There's nothing wrong with the way the OP has written their post. Besides they're not at work now so no need to write like a manager. I don't write formally on here like I do at work because it's a more relaxed environment. What an odd comment!

unfortunately misogyny is alive and well in all walks of life. I find one of the posters early in the thread nailed it on the head by saying they will inevitably judge you initially.... but you can rapidly take control of the situation by your own approach/actions.

I find confidence and a cool, calm tone is key. just very calmly, put people in their place. if someone tries to mansplain, just very calmly tell then you are ever so pleased they know what xyz and thank them for explaining it so well to all present. and then take control of the meeting and carry on cool as a cucumber...

In the realm of senior management, particularly in technical and data-driven roles, effective communication through writing is of paramount importance. The ability to convey complex ideas, insights, and strategies is a fundamental skill. However, there is no one-size-fits-all approach to how "senior managers" should write. Each individual's writing style is shaped by their unique blend of expertise, leadership qualities, and technical acumen.

Well, of course you aren't treated fairly. You live in misogynistic society. It isn't right, but it is an experience that many, many women will share with you.

There isn't necessarily a quick fix here, I'm afraid. We need society to change, and that only happens slowly.

It’s disheartening - I’m going to have to pick my battles here and think tactically.

Luckily I have my bosses on side so insubordination won’t go far. Also hoping, perhaps naively, it’s a situation that will improve in time.

My skills are more up to date than my team, they spend a lot of time discussing things but struggle with implementation. It’s an easy task for me to teach them time saving methodologies and modernise our portfolio. Could be how I get them on board.

Also I think for the women on my team (who are mainly giving me grief), it’s likely annoying that men tend to get all the credit, but also annoying that someone my age is in a higher position than them. Might need to focus on development opportunities to get them on side

@contactme yes I have also found that women tend to undermine other women in leadership positions. often being very happy to have a man as a boss but kicking off if it's a woman... especially if younger... I don't know if the whole mother son v mother daughter dynamic comes to play....

Did I read someone advising the OP (a woman) to be gentle?

Also @boscabosco tell me you're never worked with or held a senior role without telling me.

The shorter and more informal an email the more senior the person! LMAO busy execs have no time for flower language

Juniors : I'd like to request blah
Boss : Can we have this . Needed for X. Thanks.

Juniors : 'Please go ahead'
Boss : Approved.

Has anyone seen FairPlay? It’s a dramatic ott movie but it rang true to me just the issues we face and the way there’s no escaping we don’t get treated the same as men even when we’re doing well. Made me feel weirdly “seen” even though it is a fun thriller movie. Worth a watch.

Maybe they work in the public sector - ours seem to write with the attitude never use one simple word when you can replace it with a word salad of impenetrable jargon and pseudo-formality!!

What a pile of shite.