Page 37 | To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

theotherfossilsister · 2023-10-07T18:48:17+00:00

Please From someone who does have 'skin in the game.'

fioritura · 09/10/2023 17:49

Truthisbetterthanlies · 09/10/2023 16:50

Was discussed on the other thread as an event that probably (almost certdinly) didn't happen.

It's certainly not something that was carried out en masse and publicly as happened this weekend, and which the Hamas terrorists were actually showing off about.

If the incident you link to ever happened (which is, as I've said, unlikely,), it was one case. Whereas Hamas terrorists committed hundreds of war crimes including multiple rapes, tortures, beheadings, hostage takings, children put in cages, and summary executions of hundreds civilians just on a single day this weekend. And all approved of and boasted of openly by Hamas (who posted videos of it online). That would be Hamas, who reward its terrorists with a lifelong pension if they successfully murder a Jew, with their notorious 'pay to slay' policy.

There is absolutely no moral equivalence at all.

And anyone who suggests there is a gullible fool, a paid propagandist or a deliberate liar.

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This is back in 2013, it’s likely to be much more extensive now, especially in the past few days leading up to a potential (and now currently occurring) siege:

www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-23695896.amp

Israeli citizens are known for their enjoyment of extreme violence against Palestinians:

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/15/world/middleeast/israelis-watch-bombs-drop-on-gaza-from-front-row-seats.html

There are also famous chants of “death to Arabs” and “may your village burn”, plus the infamous incident of Israeli children writing “with love, from Israel” on bombs

The raping of vulnerable women:

www.timesofisrael.com/ending-censorship-idf-admits-officer-jailed-in-2017-raped-a-palestinian-woman/amp/

(There are so many gag orders in place to “protect Israeli national security”, this order was ended after years of legal battles)

Daily torture:

https://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/i/israel/israel946.pdf

Capturing and abusing of children:

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2021/5/28/hldterrorising-a-generation-israelarrestingpalestinianchildren

The murders of journalists who report on what is happening in the area:

https://cpj.org/reports/2023/05/deadly-pattern-20-journalists-died-by-israeli-military-fire-in-22-years-no-one-has-been-held-accountable/amp/

There is so much documented by reputable sources, I literally just googled everything you listed to give an example. There is so much that will never reach court, so many voices that will never be heard or that have been silenced forever. You can drop the “good guys” act now.

To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

Poudretteite · 09/10/2023 17:50

MrsMara · 09/10/2023 17:30

Look at how Palestinians have suffered.

Is it really any surprise?

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What's the solution then if as you say Hamas is justified in wanting to destroy Israel and the Jews? Israel should let it happen?

TheHouseonHauntedHill · 09/10/2023 17:50

@quiteoldad

Of course.

People have to be pragmatic and do what they have with what they have.
Using children in Palestine to further their own course is disgusting.

BelleHathor · 09/10/2023 17:53

quiteoldad · 09/10/2023 17:41

I don't question the suffering of the Palestinians and the wretched lives they are leading, mainly at the hands of Israel. I can even understand what drives them into firing rockets, but how on Earth can you reach a settlement with an enemy who insists that the only outcome of those negotiations that will satisfy them is your destruction? Hamas need more realistic negotiators.

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There won't be any moderate leaders.

Their purpose is obviously not for the good the Gazan population. You've got to remember that they were courted and created with the help of the Israeli Government to act as a counter to the more moderate Arafat starting in the 1970s. It allows for a perpetual war of atrocities, with each side saying look they made me do that.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o7grSsuFSS0&pp=ygUOaGFtYXMgYmxvd2JhY2s%3D

Blowback: How Israel Helped Create Hamas

Did you also know that Hamas — which is an Arabic acronym for “Islamic Resistance Movement” — would probably not exist today were it not for the Jewish state...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?pp=ygUOaGFtYXMgYmxvd2JhY2s%3D&v=o7grSsuFSS0

IslaWinds · 09/10/2023 17:53

Pollyputhekettleon · 09/10/2023 17:35

Lots and lots of groups of people on Earth have suffered. No, they don't all react like that, not even close.

This is from the Hamas original charter:

'the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).'

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The charter was from the 1980s. You can’t view either side in isolation.

Lots of hate speech from Israel- so I suppose they are reacting “like that” too?

”The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more".... Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000.

”One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." -- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994”

“When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

“We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

hundreds more at:
https://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/palestinians.php

LemonyTicket · 09/10/2023 17:54

@quiteoldad

On R4 PM, most depressing interview with Hamas spokesman who reiterarated that there is no way Hamas will accept the existance of Israel. Jesus F. Christ on a bike..... how can you negotiate with people like that ?

You can't.

It would benefit the world to see it.

The best hope for the Gazan people is for them to be gone.

JuvenileEmu · 09/10/2023 17:54

MrsMara · 09/10/2023 17:30

Look at how Palestinians have suffered.

Is it really any surprise?

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As an example, I haven't read of Ukrainians massacring Russian civilians.

The behaviour of Hamas is not justifiable in any way. They're behaving in the real depths of human behaviour, like Isis. And the Nazis. If you're watching this slaughter and thinking it's excusable in any way, shame on you.

IslaWinds · 09/10/2023 18:03

JuvenileEmu · 09/10/2023 17:54

As an example, I haven't read of Ukrainians massacring Russian civilians.

The behaviour of Hamas is not justifiable in any way. They're behaving in the real depths of human behaviour, like Isis. And the Nazis. If you're watching this slaughter and thinking it's excusable in any way, shame on you.

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That’s because Russia isn’t occupying Ukraine just yet, if ever. There aren’t any Russian civilians moving in, taking Ukranian homes cleared out by the Russian military and declaring them as their own.

If you look at other historical examples of colonisation and oppressive occupation with constant settler incursions on territory; you see the same pattern.

USA- English/French settlers faced numerous attacks by Native Americans. Entire towns burned to the ground and settlers taken off into slavery. Similarly, the retaliation was brutal and once the US had the upper hand, it was genocide.

Central/South America- same as above for Spanish/Portuguese colonisers.

Africa- ditto.

UK when the Scandanavians stopped viking and settled East Anglia and Dane law in northern England. The Anglo-Saxons responded violently and did all sorts of massacres.

All the way back….

AhNowTed · 09/10/2023 18:03

Truthisbetterthanlies · 09/10/2023 17:42

BUT YOU WERE REPLYING TO A POST TALKING ABOUT THE WHOLE TERRITORY!!

Aaagh.

You can't pretend to be critiquing a previous post, when you have chosen to talk about something else!

(Although tbf to you, the previous post was unclear as it had chosen to quote a single line out of context.)

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And tbf to me, NO I WASN'T.

I've never thought that about the whole territory.

I am talking about (and have repeatedly said so) the Occupied Palestinian Territory aka OPT - i.e. West Bank and East Jerusalem.

This is Palestinian land, recognized by the UN.

Happy to post again links where the UN condemn the bulldozing of Palestinian homes, and the building of Israeli settlements for, to date, 650,000 Israelis on Palestinian land.

For convenience, here's the headlines:

Israel’s Settlements Have No Legal Validity, Constitute Flagrant Violation of International Law, Security Council Reaffirms

Settlement Expansion in Occupied Palestinian Territory Violates International Law, Must Cease, Many Delegates Tell Security Council

https://press.un.org/en/2016/sc12657.doc.htm
https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15424.doc.htm

Israel’s Settlements Have No Legal Validity, Constitute Flagrant Violation of International Law, Security Council Reaffirms | UN Press

https://press.un.org/en/2016/sc12657.doc.htm

Marmite17 · 09/10/2023 18:06

There is a long and complex history here. Some of which I think I know. I've already said I'm not an expert.
I don't believe Hamus represents all people living in Gaza. And their actions are reprehensible.
However without humanitarian aid, most civilians, already living in dire circumstances, will be annihilated. They are trapped there.

Marmite17 · 09/10/2023 18:09

Edit Hamas

StowOnTheWold · 09/10/2023 18:16

It is abundantly clear to me that, regardless of individual poster’s views on the current Israeli government politics or whether they resent or otherwise the extent of land occupied under the flag of Israel, there can never be peace while Hamas and Hezbollah exist.

Hamas is a permanent block to peace and a blocker to the future of a Palestinian state. Hamas has to be eradicated as quickly as possible. That is the bare minimum for the sake of humanity in the region and any chance of a future for Palestinians.

WhileMyDishwasherGentlyWeeps · 09/10/2023 18:17

IslaWinds · 09/10/2023 18:03

That’s because Russia isn’t occupying Ukraine just yet, if ever. There aren’t any Russian civilians moving in, taking Ukranian homes cleared out by the Russian military and declaring them as their own.

If you look at other historical examples of colonisation and oppressive occupation with constant settler incursions on territory; you see the same pattern.

USA- English/French settlers faced numerous attacks by Native Americans. Entire towns burned to the ground and settlers taken off into slavery. Similarly, the retaliation was brutal and once the US had the upper hand, it was genocide.

Central/South America- same as above for Spanish/Portuguese colonisers.

Africa- ditto.

UK when the Scandanavians stopped viking and settled East Anglia and Dane law in northern England. The Anglo-Saxons responded violently and did all sorts of massacres.

All the way back….

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You’re ‘avin a laugh about Russia in Ukraine!

At least you would be if your comment wasn’t so grotesque.

Takoneko · 09/10/2023 18:18

LemonyTicket · 09/10/2023 17:32

@Takoneko

First off, remember you are here shouting about UN declarations and international law - and in a sense you are right. Israel have flouted it by not returning the the borders they were told to. On the other hand, the other side do not respect international law of any kind so you can't constantly hold both to a different stand? It's a bit like "You clearly were over the speed limit" from someone who is sitting in the passenger seat smoking crack. For agreements to work, both parties do need to do their bit?

They pulled out of Gaza but not the West Bank or East Jerusalem

Fair, although they did pull out of four settlements on the West Bank for the sake of accuracy.

But to add more context than just an order from the UN, Since the Oslo accords of 1993 there were negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians based on principle of land-for-peace, with borders between Israel and an independent Palestinian state to be determined as part of a final status agreement.

Israel made numerous land-for-peace offers to the Palestinians, including during the 2000 Camp David summit, involving a near-total withdrawal of Israel from the West Bank. Those offers were repeatedly turned down by Palestinian leaders. Bill Clinton said Arafat showed up and just said "no" to everything for 12 days.

If we are being fair, it was obvious to all Sharon was genuinely trying for peace. He had a left wing take on it and said in 2023 to the opposition in Likud "You may not like the word, but what's happening is occupation. This is a terrible thing for Israel, for the Palestinians, and for the Israeli economy."

So he thought the best thing for Israel was to pull out, do the right thing and genuinely strive for peace and fairness and about 60% of Israelis backed the disengagement plan. However, not everyone did. Some religious folks felt Gaza was part of Israel promised in the Bible, similarly the Jordan Valley.

He was opposed by Netanyahu who claimed pulling out would give rise to terrorists. And in the end I guess, when they did pull out of Gaza as the first phase of disengagement that's exactly what happened. Hamas took hold and turned it into more or less a terrorist base and it was pretty much a disaster.

Shortly after that Sharon was not leader anymore and by 2009 Netanyahu was PM again and he had very different ideas that were much more aggressive and less conducive to peace.

So I think it would be fair to say that the change of leadership of Israel, as well as loss of support from the public - combined with a very disastrous attempt at pulling out of Gaza probably led to the whole thing falling apart?

Netanyahu didn't want to - he wanted to keep territory - and Hamas also didn't want to negotiate peace or behave in a reasonable way so it is I suppose why it ended up awful

The other side are a terrorist group who shouldn’t be allowed to run a bath, let alone a country.

I am not arguing that Israel are as bad as Hamas, Israel are a modern liberal democracy and a nation state not a terrorist group.

Israel should be sticking to international law and the rest of the international community should provide peace keeping troops and a DMZ to ensure that Israel is kept safe from Hamas attacks. Israel has been let down by the international community as much as the Palestinians have. They were lucky to even survive the ‘48-‘49 war.

Efacsen · 09/10/2023 18:24

Hamas now threatening to start shooting hostages unless Israel stops bombing Gaza

Just gets worse and worse

fioritura · 09/10/2023 18:24

JuvenileEmu · 09/10/2023 17:54

As an example, I haven't read of Ukrainians massacring Russian civilians.

The behaviour of Hamas is not justifiable in any way. They're behaving in the real depths of human behaviour, like Isis. And the Nazis. If you're watching this slaughter and thinking it's excusable in any way, shame on you.

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I’m not justifying the violence towards children in any way but the situations aren’t comparable. I wasn’t aware that Russia had locked 2 million Ukrainians in a caged fence, with half of them currently having been in there since birth, under a system of oppression because of their ethnicity? That’s going to psychologically fuck up entire generations and the Gaza Strip has always been a volcano waiting to erupt with anger, trauma responses and sheer hatred for millions of people over the fence who were happily living their lives irrespective of the suffering of others occurring on their doorsteps.

MrsMara · 09/10/2023 18:25

Truthisbetterthanlies · 09/10/2023 17:48

Top trolling.

Because of course the supposed words of a single, unnamed rabbi is completely equivalent in significance to the founding Charter of the group that rules over 2 million people in Gaza.

I shouldn't respond though because you're just going to post more non-sequiturs, more unevidenced balderdash.

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You should stop commenting all together.

DomPom47 · 09/10/2023 18:26

Too many innocent lives have been lost and will continue to be lost.
Hamas is a terrorists organisation - they see themselves as the good guys for Palestine as they are able to inflict terror on Israel. I know of many Palestinians who do not support them and do not want them but are stuck with them.
Israel is run by a very right wing government who have not helped with the arrests of children and settlements and the state of apartheid in the region.
Ultimately the UN have been crap and not worked or pushed hard enough for a two state solution.
Hamas does not help this by not recognising Israel’s right to exist.
Israel does not help this by having ministers who say economic sanctions are economic terrorism and UN telling of is legal terrorism.
There will be no peace in that region, innocent people will continue to die and hate will continue to brew.
We who are not directly involved need to be better educated about the conflict and measured with our comments.

Efacsen · 09/10/2023 18:27

Efacsen · 09/10/2023 18:24

Hamas now threatening to start shooting hostages unless Israel stops bombing Gaza

Just gets worse and worse

Oh and they're threatening to broadcast the executions

W0tnow · 09/10/2023 18:31

🤔 was Mossad taken by surprise? Really? Is it a stretch to wonder if Netanyahu welcomed the opportunity to do what he has wanted to do since he came to power?

MrsMara · 09/10/2023 18:34

JuvenileEmu · 09/10/2023 17:54

As an example, I haven't read of Ukrainians massacring Russian civilians.

The behaviour of Hamas is not justifiable in any way. They're behaving in the real depths of human behaviour, like Isis. And the Nazis. If you're watching this slaughter and thinking it's excusable in any way, shame on you.

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DO NOT EXCLAIM shame on me!

Just don't.

I am trying to remain respectful. I have already expressed outrage over what Hamas has done.

BUT, I will continue to declare utter revulsion towards the Israeli army and what they have done FOR DECADES to innocent Palestinian civilians.

Bet none of you have ever uttered a single word on here about the rape of Palestinian women and girls. No, your outrage is selective. Shame on you.

Pollyputhekettleon · 09/10/2023 18:34

@IslaWinds As I told the other one, I don't do whataboutery.

But I'm fascinating how you all latched on to the Hamas charter and completely ignored the point it was supporting, which was:

'Lots and lots of groups of people on Earth have suffered. No, they don't all react like that, not even close.'

Maybe because it's so obviously true?

fioritura · 09/10/2023 18:37

W0tnow · 09/10/2023 18:31

🤔 was Mossad taken by surprise? Really? Is it a stretch to wonder if Netanyahu welcomed the opportunity to do what he has wanted to do since he came to power?

Egypt have stated they provided him with intel regarding Hamas plans last week and that they were taken aback by his nonchalant manner at the time.

MrsMara · 09/10/2023 18:38

Poudretteite · 09/10/2023 17:50

What's the solution then if as you say Hamas is justified in wanting to destroy Israel and the Jews? Israel should let it happen?

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Kindly point out where I say 'Hamas is justified in wanting to destroy Israel and the Jews?

snickersandmarsandbounty · 09/10/2023 18:42

The world stage is becoming more polarised due to extreme political views that cause conflict and breed violent reactions. This can never bring peace as the hatred intensifies.