To take a university staff member to task?

[Sheeny98]

Has anyone found university as a mature student particularly challenging due to the way you've been treated by lecturers/ or course convenors?

Has anyone here had any altercations with staff at university? Coming on here as I'm livid and it can't just be me... surely. If you have, could you share your experiences and outcomes?

Needs details and context to answer

Need more info. Getting into an altercation could be quite serious (for one or both, depending on the details). Workplaces don't usually tolerate that sort of thing from either side.

Hi, sorry for lack of details, it's quite complex - by altercations I definitely don't mean anything physical or verbal abuse etc. I just meant conflict. I'm in my fourth year at university, have excelled academically, but got diagnosed with a life changing illness in third year, so now I do all of my work from home. Still managed to keep the As up. Worked professionally prior to this and was in management.

For the first time at university, today I reached out to a course convenor to say that I was struggling to understand what our weekly work was due to the layout being quite confusing.

She then replied at 10pm with essentially a thorough dressing down (which is against university guidelines students have been given, we're not supposed to email staff after 6pm). Certain things I had asked was put in double quotes and answered sarcastically, and they said don't I know this is an honours course? There's more than that but don't want to put too many exposing details on this.

I just don't know what to do. I wouldn't accept someone being nasty to me like this in a workplace, but what should or can I do as a student?

Based on your update, I would express my concerns to the staff member concerned. If you can't do that or don't want to, you could talk to your department/school head or whoever manages that staff member if you consider it serious. Obviously we haven't seen the exchange. Do you have a student union or student advocacy service? Do you have a disability service at the university you could talk to, since you have special health concerns. Some options for you. I would probably start with the head of the department first if you didn't want to talk directly to the lecturer.

Your university may have guidelines on how to handle disputes of this nature. Look that up first as it will reflect the process at your university better.

Alternatively, consider if it's really sarcastic or if you are reading it that way. The written word can be hard to know the tone of. I also doubt lecturers have time limits on when they can email. Is it worth letting it go if this is your first problem?

Not long after starting uni at 28yo I developed TERRIBLE sciatica, it was ruining my life. I repeatedly went to the campus doctor who kept fobbing me off until one occasion I completely lost it with him and was sobbing and begging for help. He said he'd consider referring me for MRI and after I saw him I went straight to visit my tutor during her office hours. As I approached her office the door was open, as was customary during office hours, she was on the phone having a conversation, which was clearly about me, with the doctor questioning her, as to how I was performing on the course as he couldn't understand my behaviour! After her conversation she acknowledged that the conversation had been about me but that 'professional courtesy' would prevent her from joining me with any complaint regarding breach Doctor/patient privacy.
Turns out I had a disc that had completely worn out with the vertebrae fusing together with scar tissue. Fuck all happened about the doctor abusing my right to confidentiality.
Same university, subject tutor used to hit on me constantly, directly asked me out at least twice and informed me that he could familiarise himself with hand writing to identify whose exam papers he was marking. The subtext was very clear.
My honest opinion is that they have no idea how to deal with genuine adults. The sex pest tutor I felt able to deal with myself as I'd come from working in a very sexist industry and was well equipped to deal with tawdry men. I think a younger, less experienced woman would have felt pressurised to date him.

@BBQchickensalad

Thank you for taking the time. It is appreciated. I am registered with disability services so maybe that is a good first call. Didn't think of that as being an option for this situation.

You've mentally de-escalated the situation for me! I felt like saying fancy a zoom call there and then haha, and going through her email with an in-depth critique. In my initial email asking for help, I flagged to her that her course was missing important information online, she replied with a denial and said I was lying, BUT then made the emendations I had cited.

As a grown woman the same age as said staff member, it's difficult to be spoken down to in such a way. (I know I might seem dramatic but it was the most hostile email I think I've ever received. Had nicer from people I've sacked!) I wonder if she's used to dealing with 19/20 year olds she feels she can push around.

But maybe letting it go is the right thing to do? I just think it's wrong that people pouring life savings, invaluable time, health etc into degrees should be treated in such a way.

we're not supposed to email staff after 6pm

That makes no sense. The whole point of email is that it's asynchronous and can be read at a time convenient to the reader.

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia

I mean that's what I think too - but students are informed this multiple times per year, from first year. Why should staff then be able to email me at 10pm?

@Domino20

Thanks for your post. So sorry that you had to go through all of that! Sounds horrific. And you're so right - as a mature student you're more equipped (unfortunately often through life experiences) to deal with such difficult situations - but there's an extra layer of anger at the idea of someone younger or more vulnerable having to face it and not able to manoeuvre themselves out of it!

The time of the email is irrelevant. You didn't have to check it at that time. To me, I'd be grateful if my tutor was dedicated enough to reply to emails way after normal hours 🤷.

It's impossible to comment on the content of the email as it depends on exactly how you phrased things and how they phrased their response.

Does it say they can't email you at specific times? Odd thing to complain about!

Absolutely agree that is impossible to comment without knowing what was said, but it does come across here that you feel you are superior to them and that they owe you respect because of your previous career.

The way uni staff talk to my kid and others is dreadful at times but they won’t, can’t, say anything as it will backfire on them. It’s appalling at times.

follow the complaints procedure for the university.

Of course, you would have no problem if someone talked down to you as if you were an errant child...

I found it tough going back to education as a mature student (vocational course) because it was clear to me the majority of tutors had never worked in a professional environment and therefore hadn’t learned the basics of work courtesy. I think academics can be pretty bad as essentially they have been at school all their lives! A hierarchical, often cliquey establishment. Not all academics of course (…but an awful lot of them in my opinion). Personally I’d rise above it and know you’re better than that, but perhaps some constructive feedback at end of year.

This is all so strange. We were treated as adults last century. The only issue we had was the live in caretaker of the halls of residence. He wouldn’t pass crb checks these days for sure!

If you want to say anything back to her, I would de-escalate. Eg I am sorry if my email came across as a criticism. This was not the intention and thus am surprised by the response I received. If there are questions that were not answered, ask where you are supposed to get x key information from. Factual.

If you then get another shitty answer, then I would take this higher. You are paying for a service but remember that because you’re paying for a service, my understanding is that some students do not treat lecturers well. Respect goes both ways and maybe her response to you is the upset and annoyance she gets from other students and nothing to do with you, which is why I would de-escalate in the first instance.

Tone in written comms is very subjective. My idea of 'factual' might be your perception of 'sarcasm'. Quoting what you said & replying to it specifically is not unreasonable.

Asking high quality output & independent working from you (mention of honours course) is what you wanted, you signed up for this rigour.

I've tried 'send it in business hours' options & they don't work, the email never sends. I think it's an issue that I would have to leave my device turned on, it would need to be turned on at the send time? But that's against institutional policy to do with fire risk, and anyway the device goes into sleep mode when left long enough). I don't want to faff with that risk of email never being sent. Don't read your emails at 10pm if you don't want to read emails at 10pm.

Sure you can formally complain, what do you hope to achieve? Satisfaction?

Student union is your friend here. Use the systems to appeal. You undoubtedly will have been given information as to what those systems are.

Had similar problem with one tutor when I was a mature student. Stressed me out to the point that I was wetting the bed. Liked belittling me in seminars. Would spend the majority of the time talking about her PhD studies. Her seminars were so poorly constructed, inappropriate and disorganised. She would overlook students who were blatantly colluding. She gave me a very low mark, when I went to see her during office hours, she had her PhD work all over her desk and computer and seemed disinterested in me and was in a hurry to get me out.
In the end, I complained to the head of faculty, and requested someone else mark my essay as I couldn't trust her not to be malicious.

As a mature student I found the lecturers to mostly be shit, to be honest. When we tried to debate in class we were shut down, I had little support on my dissertation, took weeks to get back to me, by which time the question wasn’t relevant. Uni students are starting to speak up now, some saying they want refunds for the appalling service they’ve had recently.
I complained about mine, we do all need to speak out.

It's one thing for students to be told not to bother lecturers after a certain time.

That the lecturer takes the time to reply to the student after hours is a courtesy.

I can't see what you'd complain about there. She took time out of her own evening to answer you. That's not going to go very far is it?

Your opinion of your own work is subjective. Your lecturer's isn't. If you feel your work is being judged unfairly, then as pps have said, approach the Course Tutor and/or SU with documented evidence you are being discriminated against.

If you think you're being discriminated against because of your illness, then make a complaint (again with documentation) to disability services.

It's going to have to be more than "she doesn't like me because I had a career" though.

I agree that she should be communicating with mutual respect. I would focus on that in your response rather than the timing of emails sent as that’s far more subjective.

I think your point is stronger if it’s single minded about the inappropriate nature of the communication.

That is absolutely disgraceful. That doctor should be struck off for GDPR breach. At my uni any contact a tutor may have with wellbeing is only to say we are in contact and working with the student ( this was in response to me flagging a serious wellbeing concern where I feared the student was suicidal, they gained student lermission to inform me they were helping). They cannot give any details and it a disgrace any medical professional acted like that.

Regarding the tutor I recently read an article which would ban all student staff relationships. I really hope it comes into effect. The me too movement had a massive influence on acacia dn highlighted the disgracefully behaviour of academics as you describe.

OP it's tough to comment without knowing specifics. I have quoted students in emails to highlight where I was reposting. In this particular case a student sent me a 2000 word email complaining about her grade for an assignment that was only 1500 words. I replied to each of her concerns individually as it was the only way I could see to respond. I was polite but highlighted multiple things that were wrong in her email and assignment. Im sure she would have portrayed me as a bitch as she didnt get what she wanted. In her case her grade changed. Without knowing the details of the email it's hard to comment. However as its an email if it is inappropriate you can talk to your student union and student reps and they can give you some more guidance on how to make formal complaints.

I mean that's what I think too - but students are informed this multiple times per year, from first year. Why should staff then be able to email me at 10pm?

Seems like an odd thing to get worked up about, did you not want your email responded to?

I think you're being weirdly sensitive about having worked previously, I can't imagine that has anything to do with it. More likely she is frustrated that your permanent at home learning is putting additional strain on her and her planned course.

it is difficult to comment without details but i wonder if you were asking questions where the answers could be found elsewhere? I have to be honest, I do find it frustrating when students email me asking questions where the answers are available on the VLE or in handbooks.

I also don't think you can complain that she emailed you at 10pm. At this time of year it's probably the only time she has to reply to emails!