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Trump gets gagged, McCarthy gets booted. What's next in Trumpworld?

933 replies

AcrossthePond55 · 04/10/2023 13:20

Roll up, roll up for the GOP Mystery Tour!! Trump thread lost-the-count!!!

OP posts:
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BruceAndNosh · 26/01/2024 21:35

Verdict in.
To be read at 4.35 (5 minutes time)

BruceAndNosh · 26/01/2024 21:45

$83m
I wonder if Trump has sent out the begging emails yet?

borntobequiet · 26/01/2024 21:50

Well well.

AcrossthePond55 · 26/01/2024 21:55

Hahaha!! 83.3 mil. Bet that stings. Although since he swears he's worth 'billions' he can just take it out of petty cash, right?

OP posts:
Lizzieregina · 26/01/2024 22:13

His cult members will probably go without food for the next month so they can donate and help him out!

I’m sure Ms Carroll will never see a penny, but I’m glad he’s a LOSER again!!

newnamethanks · 26/01/2024 22:13

Congratulations to the American judicial system. Please bankrupt him. And/or bankrupt his deranged supporters.

AcrossthePond55 · 26/01/2024 23:20

Lizzieregina · 26/01/2024 22:13

His cult members will probably go without food for the next month so they can donate and help him out!

I’m sure Ms Carroll will never see a penny, but I’m glad he’s a LOSER again!!

You know, Rudy has filed bankruptcy to try to get out of paying the 2 GA election workers. I can't see Trump following suit, his ego is too big to say he can't afford to pay Ms Carroll, not when he has 'billions'.

I'm sure an appeal will be filed on the judgement.

OP posts:
Lizzieregina · 26/01/2024 23:22

@AcrossthePond55 I would love to see Ms Carroll get her big financial haul! No doubt he’ll appeal.

SinnerBoy · 27/01/2024 05:19

$83.3 million? That's chump change, he's probably got more than that down the back of the sofa. Or in the Mar a Lago secure storage facility.

Darkandstormynite · 27/01/2024 08:43

This is a great and very smart verdict. It's not too big on initial consideration, so may well stand up to appeal. Although if you think about it, in the Ruby Freeman and Shayne Moss case there were two plaintiffs, here only one. So this verdict is actually more than half of the Giuliani verdict.

Bankruptcy in the US cannot set aside court judgements for legal liability, in other words you can't bankrupt your way out of a legal penalty.

This will hit Trump's personal finances, not his business ones. This will shine a very strong light on how much personal wealth he actually has, which is thought to be a lot smaller than people think. At one point it was thought it was around $15m.

He has to put up the $83M as a bond within 30 days to appeal the verdict. This protects the plantiff if he tries to welch on paying later down the line. So he'll either have to fundraise very, very quickly or put up personal wealth, remember his company owns the property not him personally. So he'll have to put his own private assets on the line.

Also, all his business assets and activities are currently being monitored by the NY court as part of the civil fraud trial, so he cannot transfer money around to try to pay this without it being flagged.

Someone said he'll go to his base to pay it, don't forget he's currently fund raising with his base for legal fees in his criminal trials, which actually threaten his liberty so may be a greater priority to any sane person.

What I'm wondering is why on earth you'd keep employing Alina Habba? It may be part of some brilliant strategy to claim ineffective counsel on appeal 😆

SerendipityJane · 27/01/2024 09:13

What I'm wondering is why on earth you'd keep employing Alina Habba?

Knocking boots ? After all as a deep undercover agent of the Democrats, I am sure she has to do some unpleasant things.

Darkandstormynite · 27/01/2024 09:22

SerendipityJane · 27/01/2024 09:13

What I'm wondering is why on earth you'd keep employing Alina Habba?

Knocking boots ? After all as a deep undercover agent of the Democrats, I am sure she has to do some unpleasant things.

If that's true she'd deserve the Congressional Medal of Honour. Can you imagine her face when she was given that assignment??

Director of CIA: Alina, we have a mission for you. Probably the most repellant mission we've ever assigned to an agent. It's truly beyond the call of duty.

Alina: Sir, I'm up to the task. Whatever you want me to do, I'm willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for my country.

Director of CIA: Well, its like this... we want you to infiltrate the MAGA camp by pretending to be a lawyer and we want you to seduce Donald Trump. Can you do it?

Alina: Is it too late to choose the cyanide pill?

SerendipityJane · 27/01/2024 09:26

Darkandstormynite · 27/01/2024 09:22

If that's true she'd deserve the Congressional Medal of Honour. Can you imagine her face when she was given that assignment??

Director of CIA: Alina, we have a mission for you. Probably the most repellant mission we've ever assigned to an agent. It's truly beyond the call of duty.

Alina: Sir, I'm up to the task. Whatever you want me to do, I'm willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for my country.

Director of CIA: Well, its like this... we want you to infiltrate the MAGA camp by pretending to be a lawyer and we want you to seduce Donald Trump. Can you do it?

Alina: Is it too late to choose the cyanide pill?

There will be a joint ceremony with Giuliani.

Darkandstormynite · 27/01/2024 09:31

SerendipityJane · 27/01/2024 09:26

There will be a joint ceremony with Giuliani.

Oh dear god, please tell me Rudy didn't have to sleep with him as well 😂

newnamethanks · 27/01/2024 09:41

I hope he did, it would serve them both well.

Fooshufflewickjbannanapants · 27/01/2024 11:16

Not just the $83 million dollars @Darkandstormynite there's also 9% on top so nearer $90 million!

SinnerBoy · 27/01/2024 11:22

He has to put up the $83M as a bond within 30 days to appeal the verdict. This protects the plantiff if he tries to welch on paying later down the line.

Well, that's interesting; I wonder how he's going to pony up? Surely no bank will give him a loan, now?

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 27/01/2024 12:53

BruceAndNosh · 26/01/2024 21:45

$83m
I wonder if Trump has sent out the begging emails yet?

But surely his supporters can't pay his fines? They can pay his lawyers' fees, though why they should think they need to when they believe he is a billionaire I can't imagine, but I'm reasonably certain that someone other than him paying his fines for him is against the rules.

SerendipityJane · 27/01/2024 13:37

Darkandstormynite · 27/01/2024 09:31

Oh dear god, please tell me Rudy didn't have to sleep with him as well 😂

Well he was certainly paid to tank Trumps cases, like Habba. And Powell ... is an interesting line to drop into a MAGA echo chamber.

Or so I am told ....

Darkandstormynite · 27/01/2024 17:30

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 27/01/2024 12:53

But surely his supporters can't pay his fines? They can pay his lawyers' fees, though why they should think they need to when they believe he is a billionaire I can't imagine, but I'm reasonably certain that someone other than him paying his fines for him is against the rules.

A CNN journalist who specialises in Trump's finances was talking about this last night.

From what they said, you're not allowed to fund raise for punitive damages because it would defeat the punishment aspect. So he's going to have to pony up himself.

He can raise funds for legal fees though.

greenacrylicpaint · 27/01/2024 17:39

yeah, what's in it for habba?

real housewifes type of reality tv as a career as clearly lega isn't for her?

DuncinToffee · 27/01/2024 19:55

Interesting thread here on why Trump doesn't have an appeal.

https://x.com/BrianManookian/status/1751278959134646553?s=20

Finally, for those holding out hope of an appeal based on an "excessive” award, that doesn't mean what you think it means.

Let’s learn to evaluate this according to the actual rules that apply to damages and how they’re analyzed on appeal…

The $83M consists of two separate awards: compensatory damages and punitive damages.

Compensatory damages are exactly what they sound like. They're designed to make the victim whole. It's a calculation of what you lost as a result of the wrongful conduct. If someone hits my car at a red light, my compensatory damages would include things like the cost to repair my car, my medical bills, and any pay I missed from being out of work. Again, it's designed to compensate me and place me back in the same position as if the wreck never occurred.

Punitive damages are also exactly what they sound like. They are designed to punish the wrongdoer. Not all cases involve punitive damages. In fact, most don’t. The majority of the time there’s no need to additionally punish the wrongdoer. Using the example above, maybe the driver hit my car because they swerved to avoid a child. There’s no bad behavior there that needs to be deterred in the future.

Punitive damages are therefore, by their nature, awarded after and beyond all of the money necessary to make the victim whole. That is because punitive damages are not about the victim, they are entirely about the wrongdoer.

The purpose of punitive damages is to deter and discourage the same conduct in the future. They are designed to protect the rest of society from the same type of conduct by the wrongdoer by teaching the wrongdoer that there will be real consequences.

This is where "excessive award" does not simply mean "big number." Punitive damages are calculated by looking at the wrongdoer's net worth and deciding how much money is necessary to teach them a lesson.

A $10k punitive damages award might be more than enough to chasten your average citizen. That's a decent chunk of change. But it isn't enough to deter, for example, a large corporation like Exxon or Boeing. Because of that, the jury is called upon to make a factual determination as to what amount is necessary to teach THIS PARTICULAR DEFENDANT a lesson.

This is why E. Jean's lawyers did such a masterful job of using Trump's own boasts about his wealth against him. They created a factual record within the transcript that Trump has huge wealth, according to his own statements, and that to deter him, a commensurate punitive award was necessary.

As a young lawyer, I listened to a brilliant trial lawyer give her closing argument asking for a big punitive damages award. She explained this concept of proportionality to the jury using the Bible parable about the poor woman who had placed her last two little coins in the donation tray, and the rich man who made a show of filling the tray with gold. The poor woman had given more because the gold was such a puny percentage of the rich man's wealth.

If I have a net worth of $100k then $10k is a reasonable punitive award. If Trump is worth billions as he claims, $83M is a far smaller percentage of his total net worth. Importantly, it's not remotely excessive based upon the factual record in evidence.

And the factual record in evidence is all that matters because that is what is examined during any appeal. Ms. Habba failed to create any type of evidentiary record rebutting the evidence presented by E. Jean's lawyers about Trump's net worth. She didn’t even attempt to, for example, deny that such a sum was out of line with Trump’s wealth.

The jury then evaluated the actual evidence presented to them and determined that $83M was a fair and reasonable amount necessary to deter someone with billions. This type of finding of fact by the jury is given high deference on appeal because they were the individuals present in the courtroom to hear and personally evaluate witnesses and evidence.

A large punitive award is not "excessive" because it is large. It becomes "excessive" if it is completely out of proportion to the wealth of the individual or the compensatory award.

The ratio here is squarely within acceptable limits, and, frankly, even if it wasn't, Ms. Habba failed to create any countervailing record (generally, that's done by putting the Defendant on the stand and letting them testify to their lack of wealth; obviously Trump was never going to do that).

This is all very basic, non-controversial stuff in the legal world.

But now next time you hear someone spout off about "appeals" or "excessive" awards, you'll know the actual rules of the game.

AcrossthePond55 · 27/01/2024 20:39

SinnerBoy · 27/01/2024 11:22

He has to put up the $83M as a bond within 30 days to appeal the verdict. This protects the plantiff if he tries to welch on paying later down the line.

Well, that's interesting; I wonder how he's going to pony up? Surely no bank will give him a loan, now?

I think you put down 10% 'cash' for the bond. So he'd have to pony up $8.4mil. I'm sure he has some type of collateral worth that much. Assuming MarALago isn't mortgaged to the hilt he could offer a lien as surety to the bond company.

As far as why he keeps Habba on, I think it's a combo of the 'visual' of having a female attorney in a 'sex case', not being able to hire a better lawyer due to being viewed as 'poison' by the (legit) legal community, and prepping for an 'inadequate counsel' appeal.

OP posts:
Darkandstormynite · 27/01/2024 21:37

AcrossthePond55 · 27/01/2024 20:39

I think you put down 10% 'cash' for the bond. So he'd have to pony up $8.4mil. I'm sure he has some type of collateral worth that much. Assuming MarALago isn't mortgaged to the hilt he could offer a lien as surety to the bond company.

As far as why he keeps Habba on, I think it's a combo of the 'visual' of having a female attorney in a 'sex case', not being able to hire a better lawyer due to being viewed as 'poison' by the (legit) legal community, and prepping for an 'inadequate counsel' appeal.

According to Glenn Kirschner (former US Prosecutor).

'"In order to get an appeal bond, he would very likely have to put up most of or all of the $83 million so that there is a pot of money that can be paid to E. Jean Carroll at the end of the appeals process. He'll have to put it up either in cash, and wasn't he just bragging that he has $400 million on hand, I'm betting he doesn't or he'll have to put it up in unencumbered property. I can only wonder how much equity he actually has in some of the properties he owns," Kirschner, who is also a legal analyst for MSNBC, said'.

https://www.newsweek.com/lawyers-warn-donald-trump-liquidity-issues-1864554

I believe this requirement is why Giuliani can't appeal his verdict, he simply doesn't have the cash.

Donald Trump

Trump may face liquidity issues after E. Jean Carroll verdict, lawyers warn

After Trump was ordered to pay $83.3 million in damages to Carroll, lawyers said he may liquidate his properties to appeal.

https://www.newsweek.com/lawyers-warn-donald-trump-liquidity-issues-1864554

Darkandstormynite · 28/01/2024 07:19

Just to add @AcrossthePond55, normally you'd be right, a 10% bond for the appeal can be used for cash bonds if you can get someone to underwrite the remaining 90% but these guys explain why in this case Donald Trump will be liable for putting down the whole $83M.

I think this verdict is fascinating because it will provide a real window in to who 'Billionaire' Donald Trump really is.

House of cards.

Trump gets bad news amid effort to appeal $83 million verdict

The Legal Breakdown episode 186: @GlennKirschner2 discusses Trump's doomed effort to avoid payment of his $83 million defamation judgment.Subscribe for more ...

https://youtu.be/e7ucp8wP2xw?si=GmMlQjSk6K0JMzCa