Animals treated better than humans by the NHS

[Letsgetouttahere2023]

Scary cheap money saving by the nhs!!

Would you be happy to be treated by a physicians assistant; someone with no medical qualifications! (Link to article below)

YABU - Yes I'd happily be treated by a "physican assistant"- someone with no medical degree and just a few weeks / months training

YANBU - Medcial care should be performed by someone with a medical degree and relevant post graduate training and exams, ie a Doctor

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/30/animals-treated-better-than-humans-say-doctors-row/

This:

OP seems to want people to think PAs are the equivalent of a YTS scheme or something and not highly trained and qualified professionals.

This kind of thing has been going on for years with nurse prescribers who undergo a really intensive educational and practical course with very high pass marks required.

And in MH, for a while now there have been high-grade nurses who train to be senior MH professionals and able to take part in sectioning, diagnosing and treating people.

Cool. So nothing on a doctor's training (see my prev post). If you want to be treated by PAs going forward, then please be my guest.

Most PAs I have met are lovely, kind people. The problem isnt with them as people but with the role. They get paid more for less responsibility and steal training opportunities from actual doctors... the kind that go on to become consultants. PAs will never be that.

If a PA can pick up more of the administrative or process driven clinical work - for example in A&E following a suspected blood clot protocol and ordering bloods, or doing discharge summaries, then it frees up doctors to do more complex medicine.

Indeed, as was their intended role, it would be brilliant if this was what was happening wouldn't it.

@CoughingMajoress so anything negative should be swept under the rug rather than reported on because it's seen as right wing press? Doctors and other professionals are highlighting this issue because it's positively ludicrous and dangerous to have unregulated and lesser trained people expanding their roles into all sorts of directions without any real handle on it. Especially ridiculous when there are qualified doctors waiting for training posts but not getting the opportunities that are increasingly being handed to PAs.

And yet neither of those are PAs to whom OP was referring to...

I've known for a long time that my dog gets far, far superior healthcare to me or my children.

@ncob 'The problem isnt with them as people but with the role. They get paid more for less responsibility and steal training opportunities from actual doctors... the kind that go on to become consultants. PAs will never be that.'

Firstly, not everyone working in healthcare can be a consultant. There is neither the need not the funding for that. And secondly, yes, she will be a qualified doctor, when a place at the medical school she wants becomes available.

Until then she benefits from practical experience on the ward.

Why do you sound like such a patronising know it all? I wouldn't want someone with your manner and outlook as my doctor in a million years.

Yes, it's ridiculous!

Yes I’d prefer a doctor but your OP is misleading and full of duff information. Training is not weeks/months.

There’s a valid argument that if they stay in one area for a longer period of time they’re more competent than an f1 or f2 who is a dr (with no postgrad stuff which btw you don’t have to have to be a doctor).

a decent PA will be as good as an advanced practitioner nurse and such ANPs are often better than doctors up to and including SHO level. I worked in a hospital for years and used to prefer the ANPs over the SHOs. Also had great emergency treatment from an ANP myself

My understanding is that the roles have become blurred. PAs were meant to take the admin load off doctors, do bloods etc and leave the more responsible tasks to the junior doctors who are the ones who can prescribe.

But instead, some PAs are delegating their work to junior doctors and going off to take up opportunities for experience in the operating theatres etc so doctors are being denied training opportunities. This is not right.

Some alarming stories in the medical and other press too.

A lot of work still to be done.

Keep voting Tory and you will be operating on yourself based on a Youtube video

But they are included in OPS post

"YANBU - Medcial care should be performed by someone with a medical degree and relevant post graduate training and exams, ie a Doctor"

If the highly qualified and experienced professionals I'm referring to don't have a medical degree and are not I.e a Doctor then that's who OP is including in their post and wanting people to vote for or against.

Which is why my post is entirely relevant.

I've known for a long time that my dog gets far, far superior healthcare to me or my children.

Yes, same. But that’s because we pay a lot for our dogs’ healthcare!

Exactly, you pay for it. Huge amounts of money usually which a lot of people don't think equates to human healthcare but it does, the person just doesn't get a bill so they can see the cost of what they've used.

Having had the misfortune to deal with my local fracture clinic (virtual so they don't have to bother seeing anyone) I'd rather be seen by my cat's vets. At least they seem to have an idea of what they're doing unlike the doctors

I have no idea, but luckily for you that won't happen as I don't work that sector.

But our NHS healthcare isn't free..... we pay for it !

I hate posts when people shout horror about something they clearly know nothing about.

PA take on the jobs of doctors that PA are capable of doing and do not require the skills and experience of doctors. They usually follow up patients after they've had treatment.

Most importantly, the overall care and responsibility of patients remain with the consultant. Consultants supervise all PAs and the work they do. They do a fantastic job and are a very good addition to the team.

But you must be right, let's instead keep looking for consultants that don't exist and allow waiting lists to grow whilst patients deteriorate and die in between.

You and similar uneducated about medical care know better than anyone else!

Are the patients there for her benefit; or is she there for the patients benefit?

In theory the idea is good ...free up doctors time ...I had an excellent experience with a PA at my GP surgery when I found a lump in my breast (subsequently have had all clear from breast clinic)...all the initial appointment required was someone to confirm they could feel a lump and follow the referral procedure (which is exactly what was done by the PA) ...meant I could see someone fast than waiting for a doctor or nurse appointment and freed up their time ...she also checked my blood pressure and noted it seemed a little high ...I explained I suffer from white coat syndrome and was arranged a loan blood pressure machine to record twice a day for a week (which also turned out fine)

However the issues come when as detailed in this thread the boundaries of the role are blurred and either the PA oversteps their competencies and/or they are given tasks that should fall outside their role ...this combined with lack of regulation is a disaster waiting to happen.

My concern big about physicians assistants is who is overseeing them professionally? I know as a nurse I have a code of practice from the NMC I have to adhere to, and I will answer to them (and quite possibly the courts) if I fuck up. Drs will be held accountable by the GMC. What body does the same for a physicians assistant? Or can they just be a Lone Ranger and skip off without ramifications if they ever fuck up? No thanks.

Well the Drs and surgeons fuck things up regularly so really as a patient there’s not much to lose.

Don't get me started on dhs ANP when he was alive, there was no way in heaven that woman had a masters degree or was capable of getting one. Thick as mince.

Can I ask what your niece actually does?

Does she perform surgical procedures without a physician present or is there always a physician there with her (a bit like a TA to a teacher)?

As @Kaill said, in schools more and more unqualified teachers including TAs and HLTAs are expected to do the job of a teacher and so I’m wondering if this is the same thing.

In some sense I actually don’t think surgeons need the same training as a doctor.
Why would they need to know how to diagnose asthma etc when their jobs are to do surgery.

But I can’t help feel this is a way of getting people to do a doctors job without the pay.

There's a lot to lose. Recognising doctors do sadly make mistakes, the mistakes someone much lesser qualified will make are likely to be more numerous aren't they.

In some sense I actually don’t think surgeons need the same training as a doctor.
Why would they need to know how to diagnose asthma etc when their jobs are to do surgery.

They need an understanding of the physiology of the body and more importantly, to know what to do if things go wrong. Learning to do a surgery isn't the same as also having the supporting knowledge to support decisions, management and everything else that comes with being a surgeon. This is the concern with PAs being paid to go on training courses to conduct minor surgeries, they don't have the same level of underlying knowledge.