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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

20 days annual leave is Dickensian

323 replies

Palacelife · 01/10/2023 14:56

Most firms now start on 25. I think 20 just smacks of a mean firm and not a place you want to be. AIBU?

OP posts:
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8
kegofcoffee · 01/10/2023 21:08

A few years ago I applied for and was offered a job.

Turned out it was 20days, with a compulsory 2 week shut down at Christmas. Leaving you with 13 days for the rest of the year.

I ran a mile.

Comefromaway · 01/10/2023 21:13

Justcallmebebes · 01/10/2023 15:29

No it's not at all. Where did you get that from?

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How about the Working Time Regulations

Original poster
Palacelife · 01/10/2023 21:15

Also peeps saying about America, as well as being a pretty awful consumer and corporate culture, they get paid an awful lot more on the whole! In my industry, a £25k job here is $100k there

OP posts:
frivlot · 01/10/2023 21:19

@WrongSwanson I don't think teachers complain about pay, I think it's more workload/stress etc

WhosAfraidOfVirginalWolves · 01/10/2023 21:39

WrongSwanson · 01/10/2023 21:06

So their actual FTE equivalent salary would be higher?

So teachers are actually pretty well paid if we look at their actual FTE then

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Not a teacher but, along with stress and deteriorating workplace conditions, I think one of the main complaints of the job is that they're paid X amount for 196 days but end up working far more than that for no additional pay. I'd assume that it's mostly due to lesson planning and a lot of extra admin that they're required to do as part of the job- but I'm not a teacher so that may be completely off.

swanteapot · 01/10/2023 21:48

@Palacelife many in US may get paid much more (for much worse working conditions) but bear in mind cost of daily living much higher (having visited the states recently, I was shocked at the cost of groceries for example). Also private health care system, higher cost for most things like phones and services etc etc. A small basket of groceries can cost you triple what it does here. A loaf of bread was 7 dollars when I was there recently. Crazy.

dumdededdumdum · 01/10/2023 22:52

It might be 20 if that by shifts equates to 5.6 weeks

lampformyfeet · 01/10/2023 22:53

Vets are paid on a par with teachers and for that work a 40+ hour week, have a 4x national average suicide rate , some are also doing up to 1:3 nights and weekends on top of that for no extras because it’s all part of the salary, have an employer pension contribution 5% ( 15-20% is dreamland territory), often only allowed a maximum of 20 days sick in any rolling calendar year before moving to statutory sick ( 6 months on full pay is also dreamland), and still have a contract with 20+8 days holiday…

WrongSwanson · 01/10/2023 22:55

WhosAfraidOfVirginalWolves · 01/10/2023 21:39

Not a teacher but, along with stress and deteriorating workplace conditions, I think one of the main complaints of the job is that they're paid X amount for 196 days but end up working far more than that for no additional pay. I'd assume that it's mostly due to lesson planning and a lot of extra admin that they're required to do as part of the job- but I'm not a teacher so that may be completely off.

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Thats true of most professions though, not commenting whether it should be or not but it's the reality.

WrongSwanson · 01/10/2023 22:56

lampformyfeet · 01/10/2023 22:53

Vets are paid on a par with teachers and for that work a 40+ hour week, have a 4x national average suicide rate , some are also doing up to 1:3 nights and weekends on top of that for no extras because it’s all part of the salary, have an employer pension contribution 5% ( 15-20% is dreamland territory), often only allowed a maximum of 20 days sick in any rolling calendar year before moving to statutory sick ( 6 months on full pay is also dreamland), and still have a contract with 20+8 days holiday…

I had no idea, that's savage.

lampformyfeet · 01/10/2023 23:03

WrongSwanson · 01/10/2023 22:56

I had no idea, that's savage.

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It’s extremely hurtful to see the profession slated as money grabbers.
It’s worse when the anger is taken out directly upon the vet who is simply trying to do their job.
Average time remaining in the profession after qualification is 4 years.

WrongSwanson · 01/10/2023 23:07

lampformyfeet · 01/10/2023 23:03

It’s extremely hurtful to see the profession slated as money grabbers.
It’s worse when the anger is taken out directly upon the vet who is simply trying to do their job.
Average time remaining in the profession after qualification is 4 years.

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I bet.

I wonder if it's just a huge amount of reeducation needed.

I genuinely assumed vets were v well paid but a quick Google has said you are right.

That's really heartbreaking as people work so hard to get to vet school and get through it. And the skill involved is huge.

I wonder if it's because people are so used to NHS care for themselves? I mean the figures for private health care are eye watering. I don't want us to switch to a private system for health (people with my condition in the US have dire stories to tell, even if well paid and with great insurance). I think that means people have no sensible comparable.

lampformyfeet · 01/10/2023 23:11

WrongSwanson · 01/10/2023 23:07

I bet.

I wonder if it's just a huge amount of reeducation needed.

I genuinely assumed vets were v well paid but a quick Google has said you are right.

That's really heartbreaking as people work so hard to get to vet school and get through it. And the skill involved is huge.

I wonder if it's because people are so used to NHS care for themselves? I mean the figures for private health care are eye watering. I don't want us to switch to a private system for health (people with my condition in the US have dire stories to tell, even if well paid and with great insurance). I think that means people have no sensible comparable.

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I think it’s exactly that. People have no idea how much human health care actually costs. It would be good if people were given a receipt each time they visited a healthcare setting detailing how much their visit/medication had cost.
The only reason I’ve remained is I love my job and I have a DH in a different job whose salary and benefits is good enough to plug the shortfall.

LuluBlakey1 · 01/10/2023 23:14

WrongSwanson · 01/10/2023 20:34

Ahhhh so when they say a teachers starting salary is 30k (for instance)....

Does that mean 30k is the pro rata amount and their actual FTE salary would be £33500? (Allowing 6 weeks "unpaid")

Or does it mean that they get paid £26,500 because 6 weeks are unpaid.

Or is this a technicality relating to notice etc and the actual starting package for a teacher is indeed £30k including all the school holidays off?

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£30,000 would be the pro-rata'd salary.

Mumof2teens79 · 01/10/2023 23:16

Fabshab · 01/10/2023 16:48

@UsingChangeofName but it is self explanatory

the clue is in the name

’unlimited’ annual leave

If its unlimited then its not "annual"
Its unlimited 'paid' holiday

It can only possibly work in sectors and roles where one person is responsible for a set amount of work, targets or paid commission with very low basic

It wouldn't work in my team where we're all working together dealing with stuff that comes in and can't be predicted, and needs sorting urgently.
It can't see it work in emergency services or production lines, or hospitality.

It sounds incredibly unfair to be honesr

LuluBlakey1 · 01/10/2023 23:17

WrongSwanson · 01/10/2023 21:06

So their actual FTE equivalent salary would be higher?

So teachers are actually pretty well paid if we look at their actual FTE then

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There isn't a FTE- no teacher works an FTE. The rules are different in Academies and I can't comment on how they do it but some expect staff to work some holiday time, I don't know if they pay them extra or it is part of their contract.

WrongSwanson · 01/10/2023 23:29

LuluBlakey1 · 01/10/2023 23:17

There isn't a FTE- no teacher works an FTE. The rules are different in Academies and I can't comment on how they do it but some expect staff to work some holiday time, I don't know if they pay them extra or it is part of their contract.

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You're missing the point. Either (eg) £40k is the actual annual salary or it isn't. If it is, then they aren't "unpaid" for any element of the year... I think it's really disingenuous to imply this when we all know there's no "pro rata" going on and the advertised salary for a full time teacher is the amount they are paid.

LuluBlakey1 · 01/10/2023 23:33

Yes, I take your point. Mine is people assume they are paid for the extra holidays they have- they are not. The pay is for 39 weeks but is paid over 52 weeks, just as anyone's salary is.

LuluBlakey1 · 01/10/2023 23:34

All teachers are paid for 39 weeks and one day's work.

WrongSwanson · 01/10/2023 23:35

LuluBlakey1 · 01/10/2023 23:33

Yes, I take your point. Mine is people assume they are paid for the extra holidays they have- they are not. The pay is for 39 weeks but is paid over 52 weeks, just as anyone's salary is.

In which case then their pay is more generous than their headline salary implies.

But it's just as logical (if not more so) to say they are paid for all the holiday and the headline salary is their actual salary

MehtotheChristmasrunup · 01/10/2023 23:35

@WrongSwanson Exactly.
It’s like saying teachers work evenings and weekends (which they do) but don’t get paid for it.
I absolutely know teachers work hard and it’s an incredibly stressful job . Pointing out they aren’t paid for holidays when to all intents and purposes they are is just churlish.

WrongSwanson · 01/10/2023 23:37

MehtotheChristmasrunup · 01/10/2023 23:35

@WrongSwanson Exactly.
It’s like saying teachers work evenings and weekends (which they do) but don’t get paid for it.
I absolutely know teachers work hard and it’s an incredibly stressful job . Pointing out they aren’t paid for holidays when to all intents and purposes they are is just churlish.

To be fair, outside of Mumsnet I don't know any teachers who pretend they aren't paid for their holidays. Most see it as the main perk of the job.

cakeorwine · 01/10/2023 23:41

WrongSwanson · 01/10/2023 23:37

To be fair, outside of Mumsnet I don't know any teachers who pretend they aren't paid for their holidays. Most see it as the main perk of the job.

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Anyone who gets annual leave and bank holidays as part of their job is paid for those holidays, just as are teachers.

And yes, teachers get longer holidays. But they work on evenings, weekends and also during some of their holidays as well.

MehtotheChristmasrunup · 01/10/2023 23:43

Frankly it’s the only perk. You’re unlikely to get a cup of coffee at break time these days.
I wish teachers would just say “hey it’s £40k for 40 weeks work a year and even that’s not enough to stop us leaving”. Rather than moan that the longer than average holidays aren’t paid.

WrongSwanson · 01/10/2023 23:44

cakeorwine · 01/10/2023 23:41

Anyone who gets annual leave and bank holidays as part of their job is paid for those holidays, just as are teachers.

And yes, teachers get longer holidays. But they work on evenings, weekends and also during some of their holidays as well.

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heaps of people in other professions also work evenings , weekends and chunks of their (much shorter) holidays, it's not remotely you unique to teaching