Page 25 | Who is in the wrong - vegan or manager?

iloverobbrydon · 2023-09-28T17:05:11+00:00

A group of friends go into a pub that do food. One of them is vegan. She looks at the menu and sees that there are no V or VE signs on the menu at all. Even for items that clearly veggie and vegan, the pub don't use the signs. However, they do list the ingredients and a description of the meal under the meal title. There are 2 or 3 vegan options. One of them is a pasta where the ingredients are listed as pasta, tomato, basil etc. And have a little description of the taste. No animal products listed at all so the vegan orders this. The meal comes out and it has a fried egg on top of it. The egg was not listed in the ingredients so she sent it back explaining why. The manager who took the order is not happy because she never actually said she was vegan and they arent mind readers. They come out and say if you can't eat certain foods then you need to tell the staff to make sure that those things are actually 100% ok for you to eat. It does escalate into a bit of an argument because the vegan is saying well if you list your ingredients then how am I to know that you only list some ingredients and not others? Where on your menu does it say how your menu works and that you won't list everything? That's just confusing. Either list everything or nothing. The manager is saying if you need a meal to not have an ingredient you need to tell us. You can probably work out which one I am but I didn't want to write it one sided, just wanted to explain the situation and ask who you think is in the wrong here?

Itsagreatdaytosavelives · 02/10/2023 15:12

@Rainbowsandrainclouds1 the fact that all allergens must be listed!

Ohhbaby · 02/10/2023 17:14

Uhm you definitely have to state of you have allergies or preferences. I mean sure the menu could have been and probably should have been clearer. But even if you state all the ingredients it could be a home made pasta sauce and they friend the onions in butter. On a menu you normally put the main ingredients, not all of them.
For example 'pasta fungi' pasta with mushrooms in a rich creamy sauce.
You don't write, pasta, plain flour, salt, pepper, cream, onion, etc.

I mean if the stated V or Ve that would be nice, but I think you'd be stupid to not state you are vegan or allergic of the menu didn't state it

Ohhbaby · 02/10/2023 17:18

iloverobbrydon · 28/09/2023 18:50

Omg I googled it pasta is vegan and it says generally yes. But fresh pasta that you find in the chilled section isn't. So clearly I have been utterly crap so far at trying to do this.

I do accept that double checking with them would've been better and this is why I apologised to them. My thought process was that I thought as they listed the ingredients, they wouldn't miss something so significant off the list. And in todays world so many people are veggie and vegan that surely they would think it was important to list of there was any meat or egg in it?

I think I agree that we were both in the wrong. It's been playing on my mind since last night because I feel really embarrassed about it. Every time I think about it I cringe!

Yeah I wanted to say, most fresh pasta is made with eggs?

bridgetreilly · 02/10/2023 17:22

Both. A fried egg is a huge component of a dish and anyone could object to it. But the vegan should always ask in case there are hidden non-vegan things, e.g. egg pasta.

plantsandwich · 02/10/2023 18:03

I don't think enough people have mentioned about pasta (sometimes) containing eggs yet.

Playingintheshadow · 02/10/2023 18:04

plantsandwich · 02/10/2023 18:03

I don't think enough people have mentioned about pasta (sometimes) containing eggs yet.

Are there eggs in pasta...??? 🙄

plantsandwich · 02/10/2023 18:06

I'm not sure @Playingintheshadow , I think I'll scroll back through this thread and read every person's take on that.

Fresh pasta often yes, dry pasta usually no, I doubt the pub would have used the former but that's the choice of 'red herring' people are picking here cancel the cheque

WrongSwanson · 02/10/2023 18:10

plantsandwich · 02/10/2023 18:03

I don't think enough people have mentioned about pasta (sometimes) containing eggs yet.

I mean in fairness, i think this thread highlights what people with dairy /,egg allergies have known for a long time- That a lot of vegans are only very loosely vegan.

My children can't eat anything without a full breakdown of ingredients, because so much stuff contains egg or milk that you might not realise

And very few vegans got cross when it was recently revealed how much "vegan" food is contaminated with egg /milk.

So I expect most ""vegans" are not very strict about it.

It's irrelevant though because putting a fried egg on pasta is quite simply disgusting

Ange211 · 02/10/2023 19:50

I just came to ask on what planet is a fried egg on top of tomato based pasta dish a thing??? That’s just gross.
fwiw the manager is in the wrong.

plantsandwich · 02/10/2023 20:19

I don't know....The OP is newly vegan and it is all a learning curve-everyone can be forgiven for making mistakes when they're new to something.

I have been vegan more than half my life (22+ years I think now) & doubt I'd check if pasta was fresh in this case. It is just SO unlikely that a pub (unless one famous for its gourmet food) would use fresh pasta. And if they did, they'd make it a feature in most cases. This pub sounds unusual 'forgetting to declare' an egg, but that is the point, I'd not know that, and it is unusual for anywhere to use fresh pasta and not declare it and/or make a point of it.

As a vegan I don't get cross at things like 'may contain traces of milk' etc, because I know that's there to protect people, we can't realistically avoid absolutely everything unless we want a very difficult life.

Definitely agree with the last bit too, i think a lot of people would! Vegan or not being largely irrelevant.

I was just being silly really, in the pointing out about pasta/eggs. I don't normally note things like this or place any significance on them, but the thread turning into a 'Doesnt' pasta contain eggs?!!?'😮🤔'No!! It doesn't!!!' Repeat X500 really, really made me laugh for some reason!

Maatandosiris · 02/10/2023 21:43

plantsandwich · 02/10/2023 20:19

I don't know....The OP is newly vegan and it is all a learning curve-everyone can be forgiven for making mistakes when they're new to something.

I have been vegan more than half my life (22+ years I think now) & doubt I'd check if pasta was fresh in this case. It is just SO unlikely that a pub (unless one famous for its gourmet food) would use fresh pasta. And if they did, they'd make it a feature in most cases. This pub sounds unusual 'forgetting to declare' an egg, but that is the point, I'd not know that, and it is unusual for anywhere to use fresh pasta and not declare it and/or make a point of it.

As a vegan I don't get cross at things like 'may contain traces of milk' etc, because I know that's there to protect people, we can't realistically avoid absolutely everything unless we want a very difficult life.

Definitely agree with the last bit too, i think a lot of people would! Vegan or not being largely irrelevant.

I was just being silly really, in the pointing out about pasta/eggs. I don't normally note things like this or place any significance on them, but the thread turning into a 'Doesnt' pasta contain eggs?!!?'😮🤔'No!! It doesn't!!!' Repeat X500 really, really made me laugh for some reason!

Interestingly I was recently on a cruise and egg was listed in the allergens of all the pasta. You’d think on a cruise it would 100% be dried pasta but clearly not!

SoundingGood · 02/10/2023 22:38

I mean in fairness, i think this thread highlights what people with dairy /,egg allergies have known for a long time- That a lot of vegans are only very loosely vegan.

I know a lot vegans, none are 'loosely vegan'. 🙄

Mothership4two · 02/10/2023 22:47

'loosely vegan' means not a vegan

BabyStopCryin · 02/10/2023 22:48

It’s like the old extra virgin olive oil joke - you either are or you aren’t.

Mothership4two · 02/10/2023 22:58

@Maatandosiris

Interestingly I was recently on a cruise and egg was listed in the allergens of all the pasta. You’d think on a cruise it would 100% be dried pasta but clearly not!

Maybe they are just covering themselves?

WrongSwanson · 02/10/2023 23:16

SoundingGood · 02/10/2023 22:38

I mean in fairness, i think this thread highlights what people with dairy /,egg allergies have known for a long time- That a lot of vegans are only very loosely vegan.

I know a lot vegans, none are 'loosely vegan'. 🙄

Well vegans like the op are, if they didn't check the ingredients fully. If you are just assuming things are vegan then you will be eating a fair amount of egg and milk unexpectedly

And there wasn't much outcry from vegans when a recent study showed that a high percentage of "vegan" products contain dairy. So yeah, i think a fair number of vegans are "loosely" vegan

Duechristmas · 02/10/2023 23:20

You shouldn't have to specify a good choice unless you're at risk of anaphylaxis or allergy. The food should reflect the description on the menu. The manager is TA

plantsandwich · 02/10/2023 23:23

@Maatandosiris -I like mumsnet, forums in general and these sorts of threads, for that reason-I'd have 100% enquired on a cruise! Because cruises to me, in my mind and my experience, DO like to make a thing about having great food. It just shows the complexities and nuances of humanity and I enjoy that. Any usual pub makes money off drink and food is secondary and IME would not keep fresh pasta. It makes no financial sense, it goes off, if someone doesn't order a pasta dish for a couple of days you've spent £20 on fresh pasta that goes in the bin-dry pasta, you can keep for months (years?) but on a cruise, set menus, gourmet stuff-people who like pasta get to taste the 'real' thing-yes I would check there if unspecified (which I doubt would happen) because cruise chefs want the food to be enjoyable, unlike pubs which are there to give people what they want on an everyday basis.

i don't think the OP is 'loosely vegan'. She is an inexperienced one but as I've said I am not, and I wouldn't have checked in this case because I would believe it so unlikely. Similar to buying hot pepper sauce and it having eggs in it, or buying frozen chips then they contained milk-I am the opposite of the OP as a 'seasoned' vegan but some things are just so unlikely. ..

WrongSwanson · 02/10/2023 23:24

plantsandwich · 02/10/2023 23:23

@Maatandosiris -I like mumsnet, forums in general and these sorts of threads, for that reason-I'd have 100% enquired on a cruise! Because cruises to me, in my mind and my experience, DO like to make a thing about having great food. It just shows the complexities and nuances of humanity and I enjoy that. Any usual pub makes money off drink and food is secondary and IME would not keep fresh pasta. It makes no financial sense, it goes off, if someone doesn't order a pasta dish for a couple of days you've spent £20 on fresh pasta that goes in the bin-dry pasta, you can keep for months (years?) but on a cruise, set menus, gourmet stuff-people who like pasta get to taste the 'real' thing-yes I would check there if unspecified (which I doubt would happen) because cruise chefs want the food to be enjoyable, unlike pubs which are there to give people what they want on an everyday basis.

i don't think the OP is 'loosely vegan'. She is an inexperienced one but as I've said I am not, and I wouldn't have checked in this case because I would believe it so unlikely. Similar to buying hot pepper sauce and it having eggs in it, or buying frozen chips then they contained milk-I am the opposite of the OP as a 'seasoned' vegan but some things are just so unlikely. ..

But actually sauces often contain milk and chips can quite often have milk in their coatings

I assumed vegans were fastidious about these things so this thread has been illuminating

plantsandwich · 02/10/2023 23:28

I don't tend to buy frozen chips or such things because I love cooking, but I've eaten some recently that a family member left and I'd never think to check (I just have now and they're fine). It's hard to explain, you get used to what may have it in and what probably hasn't. I know brands, types, what to look for. If something looks different to what I normally buy, I'll check but I usually don't have to.

WrongSwanson · 02/10/2023 23:42

plantsandwich · 02/10/2023 23:28

I don't tend to buy frozen chips or such things because I love cooking, but I've eaten some recently that a family member left and I'd never think to check (I just have now and they're fine). It's hard to explain, you get used to what may have it in and what probably hasn't. I know brands, types, what to look for. If something looks different to what I normally buy, I'll check but I usually don't have to.

I have children with allergies. I check everything. Milk is in stuff you would never expect. And ingredients regularly change. The only way to be sure you weren't eating animal products would be to check everything, always. I'd assumed vegans did that so it's interesting to learn some aren't fastidious. It's fine , I can realise it's totally tiresome to check everything. But it explains the lack outcry from vegans when it was revealed how many "vegan" labelled products contain dairy and egg
(I grew up with some vegan relatives who literally checked everything, so that's what I assumed vegans did, so this thread has been interesting to me there all)

Thementalloadisreal · 03/10/2023 00:42

WrongSwanson · 02/10/2023 23:24

But actually sauces often contain milk and chips can quite often have milk in their coatings

I assumed vegans were fastidious about these things so this thread has been illuminating

Show quote history

Most vegans check everything, but it’s really difficult when manufacturers randomly decide to put milk / fish / egg where it’s not needed or wanted, or in some cases they even add it where it didn’t used to be! (Looking at you, paprika Pringles!🤬)
Or apparently lob an egg on a pasta dish!
It’s really hard work to avoid all animal products but we do our best.
Reading all the labels is a pain but we do it anyway because some crisps contain milk,some bread contains egg, sauces contain fish, etc. There is even animal products found in paint, wine, or the glue holding a pair of trainers together.
New vegans are probably still learning about this stuff. It can be quite tricky but don’t be discouraged, OP, a fried egg on pasta is not the normal vegan experience!
Luckily, most vegans are helpful and non judgemental of those who are still learning!
Better to have more imperfect vegans doing their best than a handful of “perfect” vegans (which in our society is pretty much impossible)

SoundingGood · 03/10/2023 02:35

Well vegans like the op are, if they didn't check the ingredients fully. If you are just assuming things are vegan then you will be eating a fair amount of egg and milk unexpectedly

Every vegan I know checks ingredients fully, they would never assume. Personally, I'm very picky about eating out as well and I wouldn't eat somewhere like OP describes as I'm vegan and one of my children is vegetarian and has an allergy. We have a few great vegan restaurants here and we mainly stick to those. They're great at catering for my daughters allergy.

If people don't check ingredients that is up to them, but I've never known vegans not to. Just like I've never met a vegan who is desperate to snaffle bacon sandwiches, but mumsnetters often have a 'vegan' friend who does that. Or that poster who said her vegan friend came round to visit and ate two, yes two, whole roast chickens....😅.....of course that happened too.

People can eat what they like, but every vegan I know is very careful.

AgentJohnson · 03/10/2023 05:13

To assume any dish is vegan is silly, especially pasta dishes. I sauté the onions for my tomato sauce in butter and I wouldn’t say it was a main ingredient either. Lots of pasta is made with eggs. am neither vegan or a vegetarian but I remember when moving to the Netherlands and tomato soup and vegetable soup came with meat balls as standard.

It’s not a question of who was right vs wrong but If you wanted to be sure you should have asked, why didn’t you?

Mothership4two · 03/10/2023 06:44

@AgentJohnson

It’s not a question of who was right vs wrong but If you wanted to be sure you should have asked, why didn’t you?

OP has explained. They listed the ingredients - no egg - didn't think they would add an ingredient that wasn't listed (they were in the wrong to do that bad practice). Why would you? She didn't realise that there could be egg in pasta but now knows and realises her error it has been mentioned on this thread A LOT. She is a new vegan and she would have accepted if she made a mistake (like non vegan pasta). A fried egg on top was not listed or wanted. Has she still been a vegetarian she still would not have wanted a fried egg on top of her food. She was a polite and apologetic customer but the manager (the food vendor) was snotty bad practice. OP has said that with hindsight she should have checked that ir was vegan and if she had a crystal ball I am sure she would have done so! I think that just about covers it.

Personally I have never seen a pasta dish with a fried egg on top nor do I want to so I would have been surprised too.