School refusing to provide translator

[CapturedLeprechaun]

I'm on the Governing body for a school with a really high proportion of kids with English as a second language. It's over 80% of their pupils. Many of the parents speak little or no English at all. There are some families who have been here 5+ years where one or both parents speak no English at all still, and even a "your child has no PE kit, they need to wear their PE kit on Mondays and Wednesdays" wouldn't be understood.

The school always use translators for meetings with parents - either a staff member who speaks that language who is available, or else they have a telephone translator service that they pay for, so the phone is on loudspeaker and a translator translates the conversation.

This is done for all parents evenings/ attendance meetings/ SENCO meetings etc for parents who don't speak or understand English.

Important letters like school trips/consent forms are provided translated in the three most common languages spoken.

The school offers English classes to parents, one held in the school one morning a week in the hall, one held in the evening each week.

School has now said translators will only be provided to parents whose children have been at the school for less than a year. If your child has been at the school for more than a year and you are unable to understand English, no translator will be provided, due to staff shortages and costs, and you have to bring a friend/family member who can translate. Letters will only be provided in English, and parents can use the translate feature on google if they need to.

On the face of this, does this seem a reasonable decision? The head has announced this and I don't know why it doesn't sit right with me, and I can't really articulate why. It has a lot of support from the English speaking parents, but it feels... divisive, I guess? And most likely children who will suffer. Currently trying to weigh up whether this is something I should raise, or accept this is a reasonable step for the school to take.

I'm also finding this whole thing really strange.
How are these people living in London. with children, without being able to speak a world of English? Somehow they manage to rent a place, pay council tax etc etc.
If someone is helping them with these things surely they can help translate too.
The school doesn't have to do so.

Even WITH benefits London rents are very high, and council housing is very hard to get. Smells odd to me. And they're all on FSM?

Even 'deprived' areas of London are more expensive than 'OK' areas of. say the North West. It's London after all.

I can understand an enclave of people from a community (like Harrow is full of Indians) but there are SO many different languages at the OP's school. So how do they communicate with each other??

Furthermore in the last couple of decades it's been extremely difficult to get a visa, it's not like the 80's where Commonwealth citizens could just move here and even EU citizens can't. post Brexit. So where have these people come from - they must not have been here long if they can't speak a lick of English?

Honestly I'd suspect a high degree of human trafficking and illegal immigration. I think OP mentioned it but edited it out. People see reporting it as a potential 'deportation' but really as long as people are here illegally they will continue to be exploited by whoever is housing them/giving them work.

Xenophobia aside, people are acting as if translation/interpretation services are merely a service to the parents and withdrawing them has no impact on children. It does. It may not be practical to have a trained interpreter at every general meeting, but imagine a child with SEN and trying to explain to the parents that the chid needs interventions or evaluation without speaking the language! Even if they had basic conversational English it would be quite a thing to explain dyslexia or autism. You really need to be fully fluent for that level of conversation.

People think if you force someone to learn English and provide the right carrots and sticks that will solve the problem. it doesn't unless you understand the actual obstacles to them learning.

people are acting as if translation/interpretation services are merely a service to the parents and withdrawing them has no impact on children

But why is that the school's responsibility and not the parents?

Why do the school have to fund it? Why can't the parents fund it? I would never have expected my DDs school or any other authority to have provided translators when I had to discuss complex issues, I took the responsibility on myself because it was my issue not theirs.

I don't think it's 'just' about translation, but engagement and cultural understanding.

Even so-called 'developed' countries like France have a terrible attitude towards, say, children with autism. Let alone some other cultures where words for these things don't even exist. In a couple of my languages the words for autism, ADHD, dyslexia don't exist, they're just plonked in from English.

If there is indeed such a high concentration of people from specific communities, then the better approach would be to pay a single community liaison officer, who can support with all these school related matters. Not just in 'official' meetings. Or, as I said, if these people are surviving with little to no English then someone must be helping them, and that someone should be engaged.

Of course maybe this is pie-in-the sky, maybe these things would cost more but what I'm trying to say is that just 'translating' isn't very effective.

A lot of my country people not only don't believe in neurodiversity you could explain all of it, with a translator they'd still think you're making it up, or making excuses. Heck, even in English many concepts such as PDA (pathological demand avoidance) are very academic.

Perhaps the school is trying to force the responsibility to someone else. Or, maybe these translation isn't very effective anyway. As it's been there for so many years, with the same communities, OP's been there 'YEARS' and it's still going on.

Nothing seems to have improved, has it?

Also, as much as people go on about SEN - not understanding that PE kit needs to be worn smacks of disengagement. Even my illiterate grandmother knew that.

At the end of the day how many plain 'cba' issues is the language barrier covering for?

Rather than illegal immigrants or human trafficking - from the languages spoken I wonder if these families are legitimate asylum seekers or have successfully claimed asylum in recent years probably living in temporary accomodation??

Whilst it's particularly difficult to be re-housed in London some families may be re-uniting with fathers already in the capital

Also having a background as an asylum seeker from wars persecution/torture can seriously impede an adults ability to learn new information. organise their lives. trust people - all important in learning a new language

Always amazed at the generosity of British people. This is an English speaking country. The school has already gone out of their way to accommodate people who, after 5 years still didn't bother to learn the language. Probably at the expense of other educational provision and activities. Of course it's unreasonable to "expect" translation services.

Arabic and Farsi possibly. Pashto, yes on the surface but most people repatriated/managed to make their way here were either well-educated enough to speak English or helped the British (in which case they'd almost certainly speak English).
Not the rest. Polish/Romanian especially not. Free movement was stopped since Oct 2021, so it's been 2 years.

The school has done a lot to accommodate so far, moreso than any other school I know. I agree with the head, it is just putting more pressure and expectations on over worked school staff.

You say that you cannot understand why they can't just use support staff to translate. Support staff are there to support pupils learning. With the details you provided about the school, this support is very much needed in class and the head is right to prioritise. You clearly don't understand the knock on effect of taking a member of staff from their daily duties.

I agree it doesn't account for all the languages but Arabic and Farsi alone would account for people with serious recent trauma sufficient to affect their learning

And the situation with Afghanistan is complicated

In a particular area of london, there is an absolutely huge community all from the same place. I have lived and worked there for years.

It appears (and no I don’t have immigration data to back this up) that most of the immigration is family migration. So someone lives here, marries someone from the original country, who then moves their parents and siblings over. Then one of those siblings marries someone else from the original country and the whole thing starts again. There are many people who’ve been here for 20 years who don’t speak a word of English, and lots and lots of young people who are clearly newcomers and also don’t speak English.

Many people honestly don’t really need to learn. All the shops are run by people from the community, the places of worship, cafes etc. Banks/libraries whatever have enough staff from the community that are bilingual. Then translation services are provided in council/benefit offices, health care schools etc.

There are certainly many people that have excellent English, but if you couldn’t be arsed, (or your husband wouldn’t let you) you wouldn’t need to.

This is what I alluded to earlier - in such a place I'd expect a large proportion of students to speak the same language, not SIX different languages (enough for it to be noticeable).
But also, if the community is due to chain migration most of them would know each other, surely if they care about their kids it would be easy for them to find a bilingual person to translate? Especially if they've been here generations and the kids have been educated in English - it seems to have made no difference at all.

Btw not sure how much you know about visas but the UK is very strict. You can't just move your 'parents and siblings' over in fact these days only your spouse/partner and dependent children. And to get a visa you need to demonstrate competence in the English language! They might have their own little channels to make these things happen though. Certainly there are people from my country working here as cooks in restaurants who speak little English, usually they can't get visas but you can get a lot of things faked if you pay for it.

No idea why people move to some other country just to make their own little enclave - refugees understandable but from what you say these people aren't. Also, if they have enough resources to provide their own community with London housing etc (which is expensive!) then they're certainly not poor.

I remember an open day at a London uni where an Indian guy from Harrow told me he was looking forward to going to uni because Harrow was 'all Indians' and he wanted 'more diversity'. Me, a person of actual Indian descent (among other things) from SouthEast Asia almost spat my coffee out!

Actually thats not what I found looking for Ukrainians.

They needed something which was Ukrainian - English. There were resources but actually they were frankly shit. I spent HOURS looking.

The problem was largely finding something that was roughly at the level they were at. Otherwise huge chunks of it were pointless. And it didn't really help with speaking and confidence. Theres no substitute for face to face for that.

I was genuinely surprised at the lack of good quality free resources which were worth your time. Lots of crap, not so much worthwhile.

@OspreyLambo well I don’t know then.
I can only say what I’ve seen which seems to be whole families coming over but hey I don’t know how they are doing it.

Like you say I guess things can be faked. And yes you are right I don’t know how it’s all working when there are lots of different languages and cultures coming together.

But there are communities where learning English is definitely not a necessity.

I mean, if they have some actual legal way I'd love to know! Would love to bring my parents over, for the record they speak excellent English and have many more years of work. I don't think they'd want to live here but to stay for longer than a few months would be great instead of flying back and forth.
But there isn't really a legal way. And I'm too chicken to break the law.
I did recall the OP mentioned something about illegal immigration but she might have edited it out.

@OspreyLambo well I’m certainly too chicken to ask anyone 🤣

Of course I’m probably wrong. There are so many ways I’m sure - you mentioned work visas in restaurants, then there’s marriage, dependant parents etc. It may maybe just looks that way to me but perhaps it’s happening in other ways.

Sorry your parents can’t make it over!

but to stay for longer than a few months would be great instead of flying back and forth

Like other countries, they can’t stay too long because they’d become tax residents.

Do you mean older retirees that have moved somewhere sunny? As all the British people I know who have moved abroad (I know a fair few due to my husband's line of work) who have children have generally made an effort to learn the language that their children are being taught in. I mean why wouldn't you want to be able to speak the same language as your kids?

Nope. Not retirees, although there are Brits who retire and carry on living here in their retirement.

And "generally make the effort to learn" isn't enough. You have to actively learn it, more than being able to order a coffee or buy some train tickets. There are plenty of Brits abroad, with kids, who don't. Some circumvent it by putting their kids in "British" or "International" schools which teach in English. Then you get kids who have spent their whole life in a country and can't do much more than the basics in the language. I actually know someone whose daughter was struggling to find work because she didn't have enough of the local language to be able to work. This kid even has a passport from the country!

Re sen there was a child of italian mum in dd2 class. He was behind and school told parent that at moving up to school but he still moved up. Within 6 months he had moved back to prescho ol into the year below. It wasnt lack of language to understand that he was behind. But the parent just didnt want to drop him back a year.
i think like a pp said for whatever reason parents may not agree some sen exist at all etc.

I agree the language courses can be unaccessible without driving. Generally adult ed has declined and price up hugely. And i think its affecting people wanting z career change

Thank you for pointing this out. They are indeed very different. One of them I do day in, day out, while the thought of doing the other makes me break out in a cold sweat...

There is usually a minimum booking of 2 hours, so if it is 15 mins actual interpreting you are paying for 120 mins.

There are cancelation fees. So if the parents don't turn up you are still paying the 120 mins, if you know ahead the parents are not attending you might get away with a £50 cancelation fee.

Most interpreters work via agencies so you are paying for the agency as well.

You are also paying for the travelling expenses of the interpreter.

Interpreters need insurance, the consequences of getting something wrong can be devastating.

You are paying for the skill of the interpreter, some things a 7 year old can translate but not everything.

I've come across two children in totally different settings who have said they lived in a 'terrorist' house. In both cases it was a terraced house, but the children mixed up the words.

In healthcare a child often doesn't have the vocabulary, and even if they do, does a 9 year old boy want to ask his grandmother when her last period was?

Interpretation is about more than just being fluent in two or more languages, there is also cultural mediation taking place at the same time.

Eg if a Deaf person signs that they went to a Deaf school the audience perceive that differently, Deaf people generally see Deaf schools as positive experiences, hearing audiences often think 'special school = bad', so an interpretation might be, "I was lucky enough to attend a Deaf school"

Why do the school have to fund it? Why can't the parents fund it? I would never have expected my DDs school or any other authority to have provided

@melj1213 replace family integration with SEN, dyslexia, gender identity theory etc

Schools should fund it because it ultimately benefits their students

@sashh I agree with you, but look how many posters say just use a child, a friend, a neighbour. Most things will be simple, but I think everyone deserves confidentiality and respect. I don’t have an answer about how to fund it.

The fundamental issue is that a country has for decades implemented immigration and integration policies that were guaranteed and predicted to result in this outcome, yet all your governments did it anyway.

The fact so many are responding by tying yourselves up in knots about the ethics of who should pay is just more of the same. It's civilizational scale self-harm. I can fully understand why many of the beneficiaries would be unmotivated to learn the language of cultures that have so demonstrably lost the plot.

I doubt the intentions of the head teacher which makes me dislike this policy. I think that a previous poster is correct that the head wants to change the ethnic make up of the school.

Having a meeting to exclude a child in a language that the mother isn't fluent in, especially when there are people on site who could translate, is just cruel. Frankly, I'm surprised it's legal.

It's also the punitive way that the head brought this in. If he had said "The school language is English - let's think of ways that we can use more English with parents and only have interpreters very occasionally." that would feel different. A half way decent head should be able to think of suitable pictures and photos to put on letters to make the content and context clear.

Primary school English is also surprisingly difficult and has a lot of cultural capital attached to it. Eg "Monday is an inset day." doesn't make it clear that children shouldn't be at school that day.