To thing school need to radically rethink their offer

[BlooDeBloop]

In lockdown everyone understood that schooling was optional. Everyone understood that missing a day or week didn't matter in the grand scheme of things

During lockdown students learned that rules could be arbitrary and not make sense

Lockdown taught parents that school was critical as childcare to enable them to work

Since then, kids are back in school. They are challenging the rules on an unprecedented scale. Parents are laughing at the SLT. Kids are cheering when they clowns are removed from class. The kids know there is no real punishment, no real consequence for deliberately, chronically disruptive behaviour.

Teachers are breaking down and leaving in droves, more than ever before. Leaving young, inexperienced colleagues in the trenches.

After having to educate their own children parents understand that Shakespeare, French, geography and more have no modern relevance in the UK. The curricula are unimaginative and disconnected from the future world of work. There is no longer home support for the suck it up attitude with which kids were once sent to school.

Once upon a time there was an understanding that the kids would go to school, get an education, leave to pursue training or higher education. Today, that understanding has broken down. Under the scrutiny and transparency that SM provides, we collectively understand this is not true. Schools are failing, not through lack of care or competency but a lack of relevance. Further, the social mores that governed acceptable behaviour have softened to such a degree a good 10% of every state secondary class will seek to destroy the locus of power in the room (teacher, SLT, whoever). To compound the issue, students are all seeing for themselves on SM how to disrupt and then go about emulating their heros.

This is a cluster fuck of gigantic proportions.

AIBU in thinking that there needs to be a big scale conversation (revolution!) around what schools offer in this new world? For starters, moving with the times to offer skills that are actually needed and valued in the workforce and in further ed (e.g. IT at all levels, from typing to programming, and not shoved into one hour a week). Real alternative curricula for non academic kids (let's not pretend these kids need Chaucer in their lives).

And when students are persistently disruptive over a long period of time, borderline encouraged by their parents, they should be sent home. Permanently. To be educated (or not) by their parents. That would sort out 90% of poor behaviour overnight.

Ahhhh. That feels better 😁. Thank you for reading if you got this far.

Oh we're back to compulsory sterilization again are we? That was fast. No, I think I've made clear that the solution is to bring back the ducking stool. They should never have been decommissioned. Wait, I'm going to need some exclamation marks...!!!!!!!!! There.

As the OP has just said, if people on this thread are to be believed, our secondary schools are good, have no issues with behaviour or teacher retention, and honestly I hope that’s true. I’m terrified about the thought of my DC starting secondary in a few years’ time, my experience of it as a bright and motivated pupil was awful. Fingers crossed the posters on this thread are correct!

The op spoke in huge general terms. It’s “all children” and “all schools”

which is utterly stupid. Many of us are very happy with our children’s schools and education.

the OP isn’t and has extrapolated from that that everyone is. Which is utter nonsense

What do you think should happen to them then? They’ve been disruptive and been excluded to “protect the other children”…. So now what? You don’t think they should be in school at all? What is your solution?

That was for Pollyputhekettleon

What is your solution?

This bit is true. More teachers are leaving the profession (leaving not retiring) than are currently being trained to teach.

I disagree with lots in the rest of the OP’s post.

It's disturbing that you've put 'to protect the other children' in scare quotes. What on earth is that?! That's literally why they would be being excluded, it's a simple statement of fact.

Then, obviously enough, they should be provided with an appropriate educational place, whatever that means for the particular child. There's no debate about this, as you must have grasped.

And, yes, if the government fails to provide that appropriate place, then the other children's right to safety trumps the violent child's right to an education. Again, in a sane society this should be stating the bleeding obvious.

My point is just sending them home for their parents to deal with as OP suggested doesn’t actually fix the problem. Permanently excluding them and moving them around doesn’t work either. It isn’t a solution. Yes maybe it “protects” the children and teachers from the excluding school, but it doesn’t protect the ones in the new school nor does it protect the excluded child. Polly seemed surprised they would go to a new school. I’m not sure where they thought that child would go or what would happen to them then.

The solution isn’t to exclude every child who disrupts the learning of others. Schools need to be encouraged to properly assess children’s needs as early as possible. Schools need access to mental health support. We need funding so resources can be allocated to vulnerable children and their families to support them early on so children’s behaviour patterns don’t become entrenched. Many of these children have experienced violence in the home and their behaviours are trauma related. But there is little to no support and schools are left trying to manage the behaviour. The behaviour is what we see, but it comes from
somewhere. Excluding children does not work. I understand in extreme cases this will need to happen. But, it’s the same as incarcerating habitual offenders. Schemes which target their needs instead of just punishment alone are much more effective. People demand more exclusion as if this will fix things. It won’t.

Pollyputhekettleon I was quoting you, dear.

That’s literally what quotation marks are for 😂

Also you quite clearly have no understanding how the education system actually works. And I can’t be arsed to try and educate you. You don’t even know what quotation marks are for so I rather suspect a foray into the complexities of the educational system would be a stretch too far. Have a 🍪instead

But you can teach Shakespeare's influence on the English language in smarter ways than forcing a class of disinterested youngsters to spend an entire term to analyse and dissect the hell out of a random play he wrote. In fact, by studying a single play in great depth, you're not even scratching the surface of Shakespeare's influence - just a tiny part of it.

That depends entirely on how you define the problem. You and I are defining it differently but you persistently refuse to acknowledge that. The immediate problem is that children should be safe from violence at school. That problem is far more important and far more urgent than the problem of the violent child's access to education.

It doesn't "protect" the other children and teachers at the current school. It protects them.

It wouldn't surprise me if other schools do take them in. After all, it's policy to refuse to protect children and teachers from violence at school so it makes sense that they would also take active steps to knowingly put them in danger. It's appalling, of course, and it shouldn't happen.

Oh we're into dear territory now are we? Alright darling. Sorry, 'dear'.

Pollyputhekettleon we do seem to be, don’t we?

Dear.

You really have no idea how things work at all….

After having to educate their own children parents understand that Shakespeare, French, geography and more have no modern relevance in the UK.

What a culturally impoverished view of the world you have. Not to mention extremely ill-informed if you think Geography has no practical applications nowadays.

Oh I forgot you're the one who started accusing me of advocating compulsory sterilization. What a waste of time.

Critiquing a Shakespeare play isn't intended to be useful because the pupil now knows a lot about a specific play.

It's useful because the pupil has learned to understand, analyse and critique complex written English. This is something that lots of careers will require, and also something that will help them to appreciate literature in later life.

Not any school I know of!

I have a degree in English Lit and I haven't scratched the surface of Shakespeare either!

I deploy skills I learned dissecting the hell out of many random plays he wrote every single day.

Pollyputhekettleon
No. I didn’t accuse you of that. I was suggesting your blanket exclusion policy was in line with a ridiculous suggestion such as sterilisation. It was me being sarcastic. Dear.

You don’t seem to understand that even excluded children have legal rights. You cannot just pretend those don’t have to be met. You can’t just exclude them and that’s that sorted. They still have to be educated. You say well they will need to be found an appropriate setting. How do you think that happens? How easy do you think that is? Do you know anything at all about SEND sufficiency? Do you think excluding them will initiate that process? It won’t. It doesn’t work like that.

You said my quotation of you highlighted some disturbing attitude in me. It was actually just a quote. You keep asking “oh we’re in this territory now, are we? Shall I use multiple exclamation marks!!!!!! There, that’s better!” And shit like this. Because when I point out your argument doesn’t stand up and is ill informed you have no other recourse than to talk about what “territory” WE are now in. You clearly don’t know much about this and are stating what you think should happen, ignoring things like the law or the process which schools have to follow. Which is fine. You can have an opinion of course. But it has no basis in reality.

Can parents teach better than Teachers?
It depends on the parents own level of knowledge.

I'm privileged that i have an IQ of 138 and an insatiable ADHD fuelled curiosity for knowledge and learning, i have ADHD and flit between subjects, i deep dive on stuff that fascinates me.. i can wax lyrical on Shakespeare, Chaucer, Dickens, Coleridge, Renaissance European History, World War 2, the Bible, Philosophy, The Natural World (specifically british wildlife) the weather patterns.
I can teach then about Autism, ADHD, quite a bit about the human body/biology, car mechanics, computer programming.
I know a little about a lot.

But i can't teach them about maths or physics beyond what my own level of knowledge is, during lockdown i had to go teach myself stuff to help my kids.

I have amazing conversations with my kids about space and nature, we talk about emotions and feelings and mental health, we talk politics, science, history.. a random question can spark a deep dive into a subject when i don't have the answer to hand, we'll go find out together.

However, i only have GCSE's, the current education system FAILED me (as i said, adhd/autism) but it doesn't mean i don't think it has its place because what my kids are learning is a basic knowledge that they can then choose to expand on and explore.

There are plenty of parents with less education or intellect than me who can't provide that for their kids, and plenty who are cleverer but lack the time to do it.

You can't blanket claim parents are better teachers, every person, every family, every situation is different.

Lockdown taught me i can help my kids learn and inspire their minds to learn for themselves, but even as someone who has worked as a Teaching Assistant, i am well aware that TEACHING your own kids is a whole other ball game.

My point was in reply to someone who claimed studying Shakespeare would highlight his importance in the development of the English language. The way his plays are taught, it will do no such thing.

I agree that a capable pupil studying such a play would indeed give them analysis and critical skills - but it would do bugger all for a struggling pupil with poor literacy, except put them off such works probably for life!