Do you think my DD sounds delayed?

[Cranberrys]

DD is 4 and in reception. She's very smart socially and emotionally but when it comes to anything educational she completely shuts down and says she can't do it and that she doesn't know how. She gets upset and frustrated very quickly to the point of tears.

I'm not talking about anything complex, just trying to teach her to read individual letters of the alphabet to start with, so showing her the letter A, B, C etc and asking her to tell us what letter it is. We've been through it with her so many times I'm astonished she doesn't remember them by now. After alot of encouragement she'll do 'A' and sometimes 'B' but they are said as guesses not in a matter of fact way. When she gets yo 'C' she says 'A' again.

She knows the alphabet verbally but when it comes to recognising the letters she is completely unable or unwilling? to do it.

She's the same with numbers and will only engage if it's something she enjoys like colouring or painting. With reading, writing or anything educational she mucks about and wanders off then gets stressed saying she can't do it.

The reason I'm querying this is because we have both ASD, ADHD and potentially dyspraxia in the family which present differently across the board. If she does have additional needs I would want to get her some support ASAP.

Do you recognise any of this as being a red flag for anything or does she sound typical to you?

Can/could your DD recognise letters and numbers at 4?

I definitely think you’re probably confusing her by asking her to do the Alphabet/letter names! Totally unnecessary and confusing at this point. She’ll be learning the phonics sounds not the letter names. And they don’t do them in alphabet order - for example she’s most likely done s a t maybe p i and n by this stage, perhaps a few more. But it’s sssss like a snake she’ll be learning, not “Ess” etc. I know that’s one aspect of it, but there’s nothing that sounds out of the ordinary so far to me.

My DD was the same in nursery. I totally trusted the teacher when she told me that she knew her letters and just liked to be stubborn or pretend she didn't recognise them. Turned out she is pretty dyslexic and the 'stubborness' was because it was such an effort for her to learn and recognise letters. If you are worried trust your own instincts and get it looked at or monitored.

Hi OP, I don’t have school aged kids yet so no advice re phonics. But I hope you don’t mind me asking what helped your son’s progress between ages 3-4 as it sounds like he’s come on leaps and bounds which is amazing. My almost 3 year old is still non-verbal and it’s such a worry.

I have a younger DD too so I understand the comparing younger siblings and watching them like a hawk and looking out for signs.

It sounds like too much pressure, kids never want to do this stuff for their parents, that's why COVID homeschooling was such a nightmare for most people!

Don't worry. Let school tell you how she's getting on. Let her settle in a bit 🙂

It sounds like too much pressure, kids never want to do this stuff for their parents

Yep the amount of times a parent has said "oh s/he never does that at home" Putting on shoes, coats, opening food packets, tidying and learning etc, when they do it without even being asked at school. I agree with others who say leave the learning to school, other than reading it really isn't that important.

Its a "whats that called? / what sound does it make?" issue perhaps? If shes totally confused, then set up a "thats not a WOOF, thats a DOG" type teasing with another adult, and slot in a letter "a" amongst the "thats not a pheehee, thats an elephant... but it makes a pheehee noise!" silliness.

IME, my dc were quick to panic and have their mind go blank, but got over it quickly if it was turned into a joke. School is so new at that age, and theyre just so little the goal at home should be to get them the skills that allow them to learn, not to actually get them learning.

I would keep the possibility that she might be dyslexic in mind particularly as there are a lot of other ND family members.

That could be ADHD, sounds a bit like our son who has inattentive ADHD.

He was OK with reading but he simply could not do anything with numbers until towards about Y3. ADHD does cause the brain's executive functions to develop late, and one of those is working memory - which is why I reckon DS couldn't do maths. DH (a very good mathematician) got incredibly frustrated by DS but I kept trying to explain to him that I just though DS hadn't any capability to do it yet and it was no use pushing things. When DS was about 7 something 'clicked' and he started being able to do maths but before then it was clear he couldn't understand anything about how or why maths 'worked'.

It could also just be not being ready to read - my sister wasn't until she was about 6, so don't necessarily read too much into it on account of family history.

Number blocks on tv, check with the teacher what phonics system they are following
ie- read write inc or jolly phonics you can find videos on YouTube of how to do rwi phonics
Verbally count anything , steps, buttons, cars ,chips and lots of reading to / with her

I had DC at two different primary schools and both offered a parent workshop on what they were teaching them in phonics and maths. The main Phonics thing I learned was it isn’t just a question of not using letter names (eg ay, bee, see etc), but also of making the noise the letter actually makes in a word. So not muh, fuh, suh but mmm, fff, sss. It is actually interesting to learn about - but worth making sure you’re learning about the same system they use.
I also agree with PPs about (a) backing off and letting her relax at home for now and (b) keeping a note of the things that are worrying you realising that she may easily grow out of some of them.
I have one with ADHD who was always very academically able but couldn’t sit down for five seconds and another that is undiagnosed but can’t concentrate at all, so I do understand that it is worrying.
The teacher should absolutely be happy to discuss it but not at drop off or pick up so you’ll need to make an appointment.

So she’s not a fluent reader in a week?

My DD has just started reception too, can recognise numbers and most letters BUT will quite often say she doesn't know the answer if we deliberately 'test' her. She's currently awaiting assessment for ASD and ADHD and I think she has some degree of demand avoidance.

We've been told by reception teachers that they have no expectations for the children to recognise letters at this stage, some will and others won't and during these first few weeks they'll be sussing out where each child is at ready for teaching them.

Neither of mine could recognise numbers or letters at this stage in reception. They were both summer born so it took time and they caught up in the end. I would not be worried yet but speak to the teacher if you need to for reassurance. We start school very early in this country - its a lot of pressure on such young children. It's great that she is social and confident - these are brilliant skills to have.

I work with 4yr olds in preschool and we often have the opposite concerns - a child with poor social skills or language issues and the parents think everything is OK because they know how to count to 10 or recognise letters. We would see this as way down the list of priorities for a 4 yr old, if she is doing well socially and emotionally I'd say not to worry and take the school guidance. Maybe in a few months if nothing is 'going in' have a think about intervention but definitely take advice from her teacher, they must see patterns all the time in how different children adapt to learning.

How is she for remembering facts and details about things she enjoys - would she remember the names of characters she likes or be able to give you an account of what happened at a friend's house? If so then she is well able to retain info when she wants.

She's still very little!

Our youngest wasn't ready at four and a half (struggling with letters and sounds) and yet could read fluently at just turned 6.

That's true for lots.

If no change in a few months check with teacher...

She's in the 3rd week of reception? Just leave her alone after school - she's probably exhausted - leave the teaching up to the school unless they have asked for specific help from home. They have very specific methods. If you are going to be teaching the letter sounds differently to the teacher you will just confuse your daughter.

I would encourage your daughter to get plenty of exercise after school, read to her, let her draw and paint and do play dough if she wants, sing with her, but steer clear of any academic subjects at home apart from anything set by school. See how it goes until half term. If you are still worried speak to the teacher then.

Chill out. She sounds perfectly normal. They probably also won’t be teaching the sounds in alphabet order so focusing on a-b -c-d-E won’t be that helpful if they’re doing S-a-t-p-I-n.

Your school should do some sort of phonics session for parents to help you understand how they are teaching and what you can do to help.

Also with phonics please don’t do the “muh” “puh” etc it’s mmmmm etc. Badly pronounced is worse than not doing it at all.

Yep, sorry. She's not getting the letters right because she's entirely confused that you're telling her that what she's just at learned at school as the sound a (in apple) is actually ay.

Poor kid!

It might be that she just isn’t ready yet.

Just bear in mind that neurodivergence can also go hand in hand with dyslexia, so if you have autism / ADHD / dyspraxia in the family, it’s worth having dyslexia on your radar.

Also @Cranberrys your son sounds hyperlexic like mine. I know how hard it is to have a sense of typical development when your child has a spiky profile.

Thanks all. I've taken everything on board.

I've got a parent who struggles to read and write (highly likely to be dyslexia but was never diagnosed)

Two autistic DS' (one diagnosed and the other is about to start on the pathway)

DS1 with the ASD diagnosis is also due to be assessed for ADHD when he turns 6.

I have an autistic DSS who school also suspects may have dyspraxia.

I have inattentive ADHD myself and DH has what's formerly known as aspergers.. so we're a very wonky bunch!

With all that in mind, a part of me felt that DD having some form of neurodivergence was inevitable.. but I do agree I need to relax and stop fretting atleast for the time being.

Somebody asked about her memory.. it's brilliant. She does not forget a thing. She reminds me with complete clarity about things that happened ages ago.

To the PP who asked what helped with DS1's progress with speech etc. A few things:

Nursery we feel was a vital step as it put him in social situations he'd otherwise avoid like the plague. He was always happy being on his own and as we had got to know his cues so well and used PECS cards he never really had any need to 'speak' iykwim? Being around other kids definitely helped to bring it out of him.

DD (who was born when he was 15m) was an early talker and would chat his head off non stop so he had that intensive interaction too.

The kids tv program 'Yaka dee' was brilliant and it was using their "you say..." leading technique that broadened his vocabulary. I remember one day trying it and couldn't believe my ears when he repeated the word back to me. Well that was it I was off.... "DS, You say... apples" (insert 101 other words) and he repeated every one. Mate, I squealed like a banshee. It was like a switch flipped actually. If your LO doesn't already watch it then I definitely reccomend it.

Then came the scripting. He'd hear phrases on the telly or on his tablet and memorise them then use them in context.

I believe he taught himself to read before he could speak, as strange as that sounds. Due to the speech delay we focused largely on encouraging communication and didn't really encourage him to read or recognise words. I discovered he could read when he started reading out words from the tv adverts. As above with the speech, I was flabbergasted.

I can see now that I hugely underestimated him when he was non verbal and he actually understood so, so much more than I gave him credit for.

When he was diagnosed I pleaded with his paediatrician to tell me how 'severe' she thought he was as they'd stop labelling in terms of severity by then but she did say he was 'severely affected' which is pretty much the same thing isn't it?

We didn't think he'd ever speak to be honest and were starting to come to terms with that.

He used to bang his head on the floor all of the time and have the most god awful meltdowns, we couldn't take him anywhere as it was just too much for him but he has come on so much now. He'll be 6 in January.

He still has meltdowns but alot less frequently as he can communicate his needs now.

Don't lose hope, your LO is still so young (and I do remember the feelings of hopelessness) and has so much time to progress. One of my good friends who doesn't have any diagnosed conditions didn't start to talk until 3.5

Hang in there x

Jellycats - YY to the spiky profile and hyperlexia.

He goes to a school solely for children with autism and another mum did say she wondered why he was there as he wasn't like her child or a couple of the others she knew.

He'd never cope in mainstream though as socially and emotionally he functions well below his chronological age. He can speak pretty well but has absolutely no concept of social norms, doesn't cope with sharing and has very little tolerance for other children (we're working on that) , has massive sensory processing difficulties and there's alot of demand avoidance that mainstream just wouldn't be able to accommodate.... yet can read as well as his 12yo brother 😁

As others have said - maybe you're just confusing her and that's causing her reaction? At 4 I would just encourage a love of reading by sharing picture books, and spend lots of time talking with her to develop her oral language.

O agree with @WillowCraft , your little girl has only just started school and is getting used to all the new routines and friendships etc that that brings. She will also be doing her learning at school, she is probably absolutely exhausted and really just needs a rest and some play when she comes home.

I wouldn't worry, my little boy is 4 and just started reception, he can read basic books (two lines per page) phonetically as they learned phonics in the preschool, but would still only really just be able to tell you the full alphabet in capital letters as that's just not how they learn. She likely just confused.

If you want to help at home, find out what phonics scheme they use and the order they teach in, print out the letters, learn the phonetic sounds and do flash cards with her.

We also have some learning resources games that are really helpful in making it fun.

We also love five minute mum games for numbers.