To find my nine year old daughter draining

[Sasha998]

Can someone give me advice. I’m a single parents to two girls and the eldest (9) is really wearing me out. Her behaviour has gone awful and I feel like there’s just no peace in the house at the minute. She sees her father and me and him have a very amicable relationship. And I’ve been a single parent for some time.

I get that she’s at the age where puberty is kicking In but she’s absolutely awful to me and her little sister. She will call my younger daughter a ‘tramp’ or ‘disgusting’ if she wakes up and doesn’t shower/brush her hair straight away. She makes my younger daughter cry often by just being very mean to her, constantly looking at her and saying things like ‘eww you’re disgusting’. She has text me previously whilst at her dads house saying she HATES her little sister because she hasn’t combed her hair?!

she is constantly giving me attitude, if it’s not pulling faces at me or eye rolls it’s side eyes or talking to me like I’m a three year old (talking slowly and exaggerating the ends of words)

every single day there will be a battle in the house. In the morning she will refuse to have breakfast, at dinner she will constantly make excuses for whatever food I’ve made despite at times her choosing the food. She will make comments like ‘stop force feeding me I don’t want to be FAT’ (obv I don’t force feed her.) she will actually say to me it’s child abuse to tell me off!

I have wondered if she has an eating disorder of some type but i don’t think she has. She’s at the age where she is very image conscious, she will wake up extra early for school to ensure she has a long shower and pampering session before she goes yet always manages to evade breakfast.

she is extremely bright at school and in her after school activities so no issues there and is very well behaved at school, always gets glowing reports but with me and her little sister she just turns into this mean girl and I’m becoming to really dislike her behaviour. She just doesn’t listen to me. She doesn’t understand ‘no’ and will whinge and cry and do whatever it takes to get her own way.

this evening she made a huge drama about hot chocolate - id made both girls and myself a hot chocolate and she decided it was too ‘chocolatey’ so after persuading her to have it saying me and her sister have had it, it’s nice etc and she being adamant that she won’t have it, I told her to get ready for bed then because it was bed time anyway and she was non stop crying and whingeing and then came down and was like FINE ILL HAVE THE HOT CHOCOLATE and then afterwards said I force fed her it.. when she decided to have it. This might sound minor but she is constantly being manipulative and doing things like this on a daily basis

I just want to have relaxed evenings without having to worry about what she’s going to kick off about. I have had one to one time with her where her sister stays at her dads house (when my eldest refuses to go) but even when it’s just me and her she will find something to argue with me about.
for example, she wanted to go shopping last week, I was quite ill and had a bad stomach so I said I can’t take you today i am ill but we can go next week and she went crazy at me insisting I take her, despite knowing I was ill - the funny thing is, her dad had just taken her shopping the day before yet she insisted and ended up arguing with me

she has on occasions called me a ‘fat ugly pig’ (im not fat so it’s interesting she chooses to use this word) and other things which I am too ashamed to write on here (not swear words)

there are no issues at school. As mentioned she is excelling and has a good friendship group. She does after school activities and has hobbies.

she sees her dad every day, she’s fine with him.

I just don’t know what to do. And I don’t know what I’m doing wrong all I know is that I feel drained and I feel sorry for my younger daughter who sees this behaviour and is also on the receiving end of it

I do agree. The problem with the ex mil is that when me and ex were together, she would constantly tell me how to dress my daughter, how to do her hair etc (I remember at the age of maybe 3/4 she wanted to take my daughter to a very posh hairdressers) obv I used to pay no attention and whenever mil and sil were in a wedding for example they would constantly be critisizing other people’s choice of clothes, how they did their makeup etc and I know this as I used to be there and could hear them whispering and sniggering. After my separation I can imagine them doing this in front of my daughter too so she’s picked up on stuff and calls her sister disgusting if she looks messy for example. I don’t know the full extent of it and I only know what I’ve mentioned but these things didn’t happen recently they happend a while ago but it’s also recently that my daughter had become extremely image conscious. The problem with my ex is that he has double standards, if I was the one buying my daughter expensive makeup and perfume he would call me out on it and say I’m a shit mum but when it’s his mum or sister it’s a different story. Yes he has pulled up his sister on some of the stuff but I think I will talk to my daughter tomorrow and find out the full extent of what happens when they go there

Writing posts brings back more things which have happened. When my daughter was younger the grandma would make her shower her younger sister, my eldest was still very young her self. My daughter would come home saying they make me shower and comb her hair and I’d tell my ex that why are you putting that responsibility on her for? It all stopped so now that my eldest doesn’t do these things for her, they leave her with uncombed hair not showered etc and my daughter isn’t used to it. My youngest daughter is very different to how my eldest was at that age

How much time is she spending around MIL and SIL?

She spends weekends with them mainly as when she sees her dad he takes them over. And they sleep over there. My eldest did refuse to go to her dads for a very long time but recently she has been going again on the weekends

Op this can be a very difficult age I remember my dd being a nightmare. She's a lot nicer now and off to uni! I brought her to a play therapist when I split with x. Sounds like
there are issues that are maybe even sub conscious to her. She is prob as confused by her behavior as you are and prob doesn't want to be like this but can't help it. If I were you I'd definitely look for some
Counseling. I liked the play therapy as ther wasn't a lot of talking. It works more
On the child's sub conscious. Other things I found helpful was giving her 100% of my attention even for short periods - I had a younger ds too. But most of all don't forget to top yourself up regularly hugs Xxx

She’s seeking control of food, you situation. It’s budding narcissistic behaviour and u need to brace yourself and stick to boundaries. Manipulation is rife in her very being and you don’t want to enmesh you with this freaky behaviour.

I think a lot of the behaviours you are describing are worrisome. Would perhaps seek professional help , private if you can afford…

This is exactly how early EDs start OP. You need to keep a very close eye on her weight - it sounds like she’s trying to skip breakfast and other meals.

Not to add to any worries, but I’d also be concerned about some kind of abuse. It’s highly unusual for a 9 year old to be so focused on appearances and wanting to be ‘clean’. That along with her outbursts would concern me.

Rein this in now. That is way too much for a 9 year old. It's unfair to you and her little sister as well

I have a 9 year old and yes she is draining... but not like this.
With the food (I have a DS with SEN who is moderately picky, as well) I would go with the division of responsibility:
You decide what is served, when, and where.
She decides whether to eat it or not. Don't big it up, persuade, wheedle. Just present it. If she eats a couple of bites, "oh you're done, OK, just remember the next meal is [breakfast}" and no snacks except at well-advertised times (you can have a snack when we get in from school but then nothing till tea). Hungry after dinner? You can have a bit more (within half an hour). Hungry before dinner? You had a snack. It won't be long.

Mine specialises in toddler style tantrums I CAN'T DO MY MATHS I CAN'T WALK THAT FAR IT'S TOO TRICKY* *and bending your ear non stop when you are trying to drive/send a text/WFH.

My DS is the one who's rude to DD but we are teaching her to ignore it. Harder for a much younger child I know but it's not something she should get attention for (even negative, and if you are responding to her moaning about her sister, refusing food etc she's getting used to negative attention). Blank her when she does it.

Thank you for all the advice so far. Just to be clear here as I am taking the advice on board, if she refuses breakfast for example, do I just let her be? What about at dinner time if she starts off with her moaning and saying she doesn’t want to eat do I just say ok and ensure no snacks are given? I am a bit worried about this as she could and probably would survive on very little if it was up to her.

before she went to bed today I did talk to her and tell her that if she doesn’t like the food I make, she can tell me what she wants and I’ll make it, but that I won’t accept her not eating and she has to eat. She did tell me what she wants for breakfast and dinner tomorrow so I’ll see if there’s any improvement tomorrow.

I think what's been going on at dad's house is not OK, the children are being emotionally abused and your daughter has been trying to show you with her behaviour for some time that things aren't right. Please listen to her she's showing signs of becoming very unhappy and this is a formative age. Some of the things you've said are really very worrying and I'd be looking at paying for good quality family therapy for you and the girls (with a woman counsellor) as a matter of urgency

I think you need some help IRL, OP- not from a message board. With the best will in the world- mumsnet is full of armchair psychologists, and an AWFUL lot of people who think they have the answer to all of life’s parenting problems.

Just thinking about this as a mum, if this were my child, I’d be seeking support from a licensed, recommended therapist. I’d probably start with the GP as my first port of call to find a therapist- nhs or private- but I’d go to the GP alone, so i could have a really frank conversation without the child hearing.

Id also speak to school- find out what she’s eating there/ how she’s behaving, and loop them in.

But I wouldn’t look to mumsnet for the answers- the risks of getting it wrong with potential eating disorders in the mix is too high.

if she doesn’t like the food I make, she can tell me what she wants and I’ll make it,
Do not do this unless she has a LONG history of food sensory issues and you are seeking help. You decide what's for dinner. If you know she doesn't like specific things, make sure there's always something she does like. E.g. my DS will eat about 45 foods (not counting snacks) which is pretty good, not restricted eating territory, but if I want to serve salmon instead of his usual breaded fish I also serve potato wedges and peas, and don't comment on what he does with the salmon.

If she doesn't eat, she'll be hungry. If she thinks you are responding to her not eating, she'll not eat more.

This is also true.
The "division of responsibility" idea is very common in behavioural therapy for eating (disorders, picky eating etc.)
I would also check out a dietician called Thalia, who's on Insta/Tiktok.

Why did you split with their dad?

Why do they leave your youngest daughter unwashed/unkempt? Are they creating a hierarchy between the children? A scapegoat and a golden child? Viewed in context, your daughter's anxiety about her younger sister's appearance could be a desperate bid to protect her.

I really don't think I'd want these people around my girls unsupervised

I split with their dad for a number of reasons, he would psychologically abuse me quite a bit constantly call me ugly whenever we have a argument or that id get cancer and die if I ever leave him. If soemone would look at me in the street for example he’d say I’m a Slag for looking at them (when I never would) My daughter was too young to remember the ugly comments so I don’t think her image obsession is to do with that. He would gaslight me saying the aforementioned things then laughing and saying he never said it. He would never spend time with me and the kids he would always be at the gym, Or at his mums house or whatever. He has been psychically abusive to me in front of the kids, they were young thighs and do not remember. the final straw was when an incident occurred near the school and my daughter told me she couldn’t stop thinking about it at school and had tears in her eyes and I realised enough is enough. There is more to it but that’s the general gist.

after my split he remained very controlling for a very long time. I guess I was a bit scared of him. But we now have a amicable relationship and I liked to keep it that way for the kids (reading this thread is obviously making me question this)

I feel so terribly guilty. Writing everything down and hearing others opinions makes me realise that they are damaging her but I guess i didn’t really see it

my daughter used to refuse to go to her dads house and cry when I say she has to go. My ex would have a rule that either they both go or none can go (as they keep each other company) and as my youngest daughter loves going, I would tell my eldest that she also needs to go. For a while they both didn’t go and looking back now, together the three of us, had some lovely times during this period. To this day she still cries when I say she is going to her dads house, but she agrees to go one night a week and agreed this very reluctantly. She sees him every day as he takes them to after school activities sometimes collects from school drops them off etc

I don't think children should have to go to the other parent's house if they really don't want to. Your daughter is communicating you with you in different ways now, because when she tried telling you she didn't want to go then you didn't take any notice. Her dad has no right to say that it's either both or nobody. If she doesn't want to go and he says this then neither should go.

Sorry but I am concerned about your attitude to her autonomy based on the language in your post. it takes 2 to "battle" about food, if you start "persuading" her to drink hot chocolate then that becomes an area for her to exert control, as it's her body so she can decide what to put in it.
Maybe it's too far gone to resolve without professional help to reset things, but your job is to provide the opportunity to eat not to make sure your kids eat and I think the cracks are showing now in that attitude.
It makes me wonder if as she tries to become independent and assert herself as her own person she's fighting against things that are actually not good for her to fight against.
Good luck

I don't want to upset you, but I wonder whether she is getting some of those cruel comments from her father? She's the oldest and sounds pretty spirited, maybe they clash and he is emotionally abusing her as he did you. Coupled with the messaging she is getting from her aunt, it could be a toxic mix for developing her self-image. I would stop making her go if she hates it to the point of tears. If ex wants to see her he needs to put the work into building a positive relationship with her.

Yeah they are extremely abusive and weaponising the relationship between the sisters. No wonder your daughter feels resentful of her sister. Her dad and his family are badly fucked up. She needs you in her corner.

I'm honestly not saying this to hurt you but I think you need to get really real about your role in enabling this. You are repeatedly dismissing her feelings (too young/doesn't remember) along with reality (amicable relationship with dad). I understand that this is self protective and reflective of your wish that things were/are ok but it's not true, it's gaslighting (yourself too) and it's enabling this abuse to go on. He's safe around your daughters. You need to get in their corner. This isn't about food

*not safe

OP did you find out the reason why your daughter didn't want to go to her dad's? At age 9, this would worry me, and I think I'd perhaps be inclined to try to discourage her from going if at all possible. From what you've told us about your own relationship with your Ex, he sounds like an extremely abusive person, and the rest of his family sound similar, so discouraging your girls from going there, seems like a step in the right direction to me. I would also perhaps be inclined to try going for regular walks with your girls as this is a great way to get them talking. Then maybe you can bring up the subject of what happens while they are at their Dad's, how often they see their Nan and Aunt, and then maybe ask your eldest why she's suddenly decided to start going to her Dad's again, and try and bring the conversation round to why she went through a spell of not wanting to go.

I'm hoping that I'm a long way off the mark with this, but I do think that with such extreme behaviour I'd be considering the possibility of sexual abuse. I know this is a horrible thought, but it never crossed my mind, until my child told me what had happened to them, so please don't rule it out, as becoming obsessive about her own body, while picking on her younger sister about the way she looks, could be a sign of something like this occurring. I really don't want to worry you, and I know what a strain you must be under with her behaviour being as challenging as you've described, but I think to be on the safe side, perhaps you need to spend more time actually studying your girls behaviours, and asking yourself what might be behind them. Unfortunately most of us as parents do tend to be so absorbed in keeping things ticking over on a daily basis, that it's not until we hit a real problem that we think back, and realise that if we'd only paid more attention, we might have spotted signs of what has been going on. Thankfully you've already picked up about her unusual interest in skin care, and that she's already worrying about body image, but could it be that there's more, that being a single Mum you haven't had the time to notice, or give as much thought to as perhaps you might. I really hope it isn't anything like this, but thought it was something you should perhaps give some thought to.