holiday with dad

[KD1995]

Hi, am I being unreasonable?
so basically my youngests Nan booked a trip to Disney for them to take my youngest on their own (dad going too). This has really rubbed me up the wrong way. 1. It was booked with out any sort of conversation with me, to ask if it was ok it was done behind my back 2. He’s only 4 I have huge anxiety after loosing my mum so I wouldn’t feel comfortable with him being out of the country and I can’t get there if something happens 3. I’ve always wanted to go and take my boys and I think it’s not really fair on my oldest that he wouldn’t be able to have the same opportunity. So I orginally said no and it caused a massive argument I was made out to feel like a shit mum that I would let my child miss out. So In the end I tried to compromise And said what if I book the same trip but stay in a different hotel with my oldest so he gets to go and then just see if I could have my youngest for 2 days out of the trip and they have him the rest of the days but it wasn’t good enough. Dad is telling me that he’s going to take him regardless that I said no and that he has every right too. It’s getting really sour and I’m panicking. I thought you had to have permission from the other parent that the child can go out of the country with the other parent. I don’t know where I stand with it? Am I wrong here? (Sorry long post to read 😣) just need some advice/opinions- thanks

I think that this is absolutely the best solution OP. After you invited your ex to share the caravan holiday, I think it's really mean of him and his parents to say they don't want you going to the same venue as them, and in your shoes I would definitely do this. As the poster I've quoted says, it will put your mind at rest as you will be in the same country as your youngest, so if anything did go wrong you could be there, and I think that's probably your biggest worry. Personally, I totally understand the way you feel, and if you don't end up going, I'd be giving serious thought as to whether I was going to be so amicable toward them in the future as it sounds like you've been up to now.

“judging me because I’m thinking of my child’s feelings?”

Nobody is doing that. If you posted saying, “am I wrong to be upset for older son” everyone would sympathise, and likely offer practical suggestions.

But this is the reality of life after a relationship ends. Your boys are going to have different parental relationships and experiences and you need to handle that. You won’t be able to do that by trying to get your ex to treat them both like his. I’ve read on here about some exes who have both for the contact time - and I think that’s lovely, and I wish you had it. But… it’s not the norm at all. You need to find a way to work with that with your older son - but that doesn’t include saying no to the reasonable request for a holiday with his child.

“it will put your mind at rest as you will be in the same country as your youngest, so if anything did go wrong you could be there, and I think that's probably your biggest worry.”

I have to disagree with this. Leaving aside the question of the boys’ experiences and OP sharing her caravan, I don’t think the best way to deal with her anxiety is to follow them. She can’t always do that. She has years of separate holidays and contact time ahead of her. I’ve been there, I really am sympathetic. I’ve been in another country for work, and also because ex has taken the kids abroad on holiday. It does cross your mind that you can’t get to them. Even just weekends visiting friends… when my kids go on a weekend 5 hours drive away, I can’t quickly get to them - and in fact, I don’t even know where they are. It’s his time, he doesn’t tell me - and nor do I, if on a sunny Saturday I decide on an impromptu visit to my sister’s seaside caravan 3 hours away. It is a really hard part of separation, not having that control. But my opinion is that you have to force yourself to get used to it - and that means not going to Paris too.

@Wibblywobblylikejelly your allowed your opinion but I’m not going to be made to feel bad for thinking of my oldest sons feelings. I’m not forcing my ex to do anything with my oldest. but for my youngest to have everything and for my oldest to hardly have any family and he feels like everyone just leaves his life. I’m going to defend him! my ex made that decision to bother with my oldest, as I said he bothered when we went away in July when we weren’t together. He has every right to just want it to be him and his son. But the decision for my ex to just drop my oldest is s raw. It will be different down the line because we would have time to deal with it. But being rejected by someone you looked up to doesn’t just go away just like that! Disney is once in a lifetime trip! I highly doubt I be able to make it possibly again. One day for them to both enjoy it together shouldn’t be such a big thing

Nobody is saying you’re not allowed feelings

You feeling pissed off with your ex isn’t a reason to stop your child going on holiday.

If it ends up on court you’ll not win based on feelings.

You might be at the end of your tether, but you’re picking a hill to die on that won’t go in your favour.

People that say you need to have the other parents permission, does anyone check? And at which point?
I've taken my kids on multiple holidays and never had this come up.

That doesn't change the fact that none of that is your Exs problem and its not something he has to care about when planning a holiday with his son!

If the other parent doesn’t object then it’s not a problem. Even with a random spot check they’ll usually just tell you to carry a letter next time. They can ring the other parent though.

If you have a court order with you being the RP you don’t usually need permission.

Yes they can and have checked.

But It's easily resolved with a SIO
He would obtain one very easily and the courts would not give a single thought or consideration for her eldest or his feelings

So OP can be difficult if she wants. I just hope he's aware of the legal avenues he has readily available.

Mine have their dad’s surname not mine (I never changed it on marriage) so under 12 (and e-passport gate!) we did get questioned sometimes.

XH and I wrote a generalised non-trip specific letter with photos of our passports and marriage certificate, and address and mobile number, stating, “we give each other permission”.

He (same surname) has never been questioned - or the kids.

A few times when they were about 5-7 they got asked, “who are you travelling with?” and some seemingly chit chat questions where it was clearly about their body language not the verbal response. My youngest daughter was quite put out when she stopped getting attention! A couple of times I didn’t have the letter - the questions were never about ether I had permission, or if XH knew. They were always just establishing that they were my children and happy to be travelling with me - gleaned via their responses not mine!

I have travelled all over Europe and around Asia as a single parent and used to always take a letter. I have only been asked to show that once when travelling within or home from South Africa. No body else has ever asked! Even if you have a court order confirming arrangements, who would think to take a copy of that document! I think chances of them being asked are slim.

Look I have three children with three different dads so this comment doesn't come from a harsh place.

You are being unreasonable. I honestly thought you were talking about him going to America with his grandparents and dad. He is off to France. A couple of hours away. He probably should have chatted to you about it first but it sounds as if he or his mum planned a trip and got caught up in the moment.

You can't stop him from leaving the country. My boys all did things with their respected families. Sometimes it stung. Sometimes I felt hurt when one did better than the others... my middle son would get a wedge of cash at Christmas and the others didn't. But that's life. And what happens when you have multiple partners. I made it clear that their families loved them. He is also not your property. It's not ok for you to direct a caravan holiday- did you ask him before you booked it?- and not allow him to do his own thing. You aren't together anymore. Will you ever allow him to leave the country without you?

Also Disneyland Paris isn't huge and you will bump into them.....

“One day for them to both enjoy it together shouldn’t be such a big thing”

You didn’t ask for one day though.
First up you just said no.
Then you wanted your youngest for two days of their trip.

Your holiday in July on the face of it seems comparable. But it’s not, really. July you were giving ex the chance to holiday with his son. What you’re offering now is to reduce his time with his son. And maybe, far from July making this DLP trip more likely to have been shared, it’s made your ex realise that you want to continue shared trips in the future - and he just doesn’t want that.

It is shit for your older boy. I really feel for him, and it’s going to need continued careful management by you. Why not start with an Alton Towers trip? He gets to go on fab rides his brother is too young for, gets 1:1 time with you, doesn’t have the days restricted by a younger kid - oh and Splash Landings is an awesome pool!

He does need your permission. He also needs a passport which he can't have if you have one. He could take you to court to get permission from them and bypass you, his success would depend on several factors.

How much time does your son spend with his dad? If your son is 4 and has never spent an overnight with dad, and suddenly dad wants to take him abroad for a week clearly thats a no. If he routinely stays with dad for 2/3 nights and dad wants to take him on holiday for 4/5 nights then that is reasonable, and your anxiety shouldn't stop him going.

Unfortunately you have children with different fathers, they have no responsibility for your oldest or his feelings. If they have the means of providing your youngest with oppertunities you can't give your eldest I'm afraid thats life. Your youngest shouldn't miss out.

I feel for you, but if your XH he goes to court, he'll get permission to go. They're not going to care about how you or eldest feel, youngest will be with his Dad and unless you can evidence that's unsafe they'll let him take his child on holiday. Maybe you could suggest a different compromise. You go somewhere else with eldest DS while they're at Disney World and then the day they're leaving to go home you pick youngest DS up and the 3 of you stay and do Disney land for a couple of nights. Youngest might be a bit over Disney but then at least your eldest can go on the rides he wants.

Don't listen to the male identified women on this thread,
just go with your gut
If your brain is screaming no , and you feel uncomfortable with the idea then
stick to your guns
because you know your own situation and reasons
so don't be bullied into things you don't agree with.

they did not involve you in the planning, which is really not on

if you are truly equal parents with your ex,

then you should both decide things together,
not him deciding things behind your back and forcing you to go along with it.

I would give your ex a fair ultimatum

they need to accept that you will be joining them and stay in another hotel,
or your son simply doesn't go with them until he is older
4 yrs old is just too young IMO

I have said NO to my dc being taken abroad many times
because my exes home country is, backwards and dangerous.
I don't agree with the way they treat women and girls there,
child marriages and FGM is still rampant there
The country has frequent bombings, active terrorist groups,
kidnappings and murders of tourists
my dc is also a high needs child with allergies and SEN, who will not be catered to in that country
because they believe SEN are caused by demons
and after all of that
I am STILL called a selfish bitch and all names under the sun for, "preventing a man from taking his child on holiday"😂

its a literal third world country in poverty and its on the gov.uk "do not go" list
but if I was to listen to my ex and people on this thread
I should believe that I am unreasonable for saying no, to sending my child into a literal warzone that can get active at a moments notice.
all because he has "rights" as a father
I am sure I would be getting lots of YABVU, "you're denying him his rights!"

I think deep down you know when it is the right time to let your child go to another country without you
parents who have their children full time should have more rights in these kind of situations because they often know the child best and know when is the right time to let them go abroad
sometimes as a mother you have to put your foot down, you will get resistance but just keep saying no

I don't agree with people saying that its a fathers right to take a child out of country just because he's the dad
we don't know the details of how involved he is as a father, or other dynamics at play

@truthhurts23 ❤

@truthhurts23 do you get much FGM at Disneyland Paris, do you think?

“parents who have their children full time should have more rights in these kind of situations because they often know the child best and know when is the right time to let them go abroad”

They’ve not long split up, so this man has been a full time parent for around 4 years. I expect he knows his son pretty well, and none of OP’s 3 stated objections (not being asked, her being anxious at being apart, the older son missing out) related to him not being old enough. And she knows him better than us.

🙄yes just ignore all the other stuff and focus on that one thing
that is MY situation
there are dangers everywhere even at disney land
Its natural for a mother to want to keep her young children close to her, humans are still animals
I don't know many mothers who would be Ok letting their 4 year olds go abroad without them

him not being old enough add it to the list of reasons why it makes her uncomfortable to let her young son go abroad without her

I don't agree with people saying that its a fathers right to take a child out of country just because he's the dad

Rightly or wrongly in law the father is just as much a parent as mum, they have equal rights.

I think people are sounding so harsh because they are cutting through to the point- it may be a less than ideal situation and he may not have covered himself in glory but he has just as much right to take his child on holiday as you do. Unless there is a big drip feed coming there isn’t a court in the land that would stop him.

From your perspective I would not stand in the way and would arrange to do something nice with eldest whilst they are away.

@truthhurts23 “🙄yes just ignore all the other stuff and focus on that one thing”

Oh I’m sorry 🤣

So instead of “is there much FGM at DLP do you think?” I’ll ask you:

Is there much FGM in DLP?
Is France backwards?
Is it dangerous at DLP?
Are women and girls treated worse there than the UK? (and do you think that’s a concern for OP’s son)
Does France have a problem with child marriages?
Are there more active terrorist groups than in the UK?
Are the bombings more frequent there than the UK?
Do many tourists get kidnapped from DLP?
And subsequently murdered?
Do the French generally believe that SEN is caused by demons?
Is it a literal third world, poverty stricken country with Foreign Office do not travel advice?

Mind you, I will give you that culturally they’re generally not as forward thinking on SEN as in the UK.

So now I’m not focusing on just one thing - which of those are reasons for him not to take his son to DLP? It all seems a bit irrelevant really…

You are being selfish and unreasonable. It seems like you only want to stop him because you wish you had come up with the idea first. I am not surprise he is getting hostile, that is because you seem to be treating your child as your property.

He doesn’t need your written permission, but you could stop him if you wanted to. But then he could do the same to you. Do you really want to get into that tit for tat?

We took my 4YO DSS to DLP in 2021. When we first asked, he was 3, and we asked a full year in advance of when we wanted to go.
She was very much against it. 4 was too young, she didn't want him to be that far away from her, he didn't understand French and it would scare him being around so many people that didn't speak his language - we felt that every time we offered a response to calm her worries, she'd come up with another one.
We didn't end up having to go to court, but it was a close thing, and we absolutely would have done if needed.
In the end we took him for 3 days and 3 nights, and he had an absolute ball. He still talks about it now, and has asked to go back haha!
At the end of the day, it is different in that we don't have another child on his mum's side to consider, but we would still have wanted to give him that experience, before he became too old to enjoy it.

I'm sorry to say this, but I think you do need to let him have this experience. He will be with people who love him and care about him, and if anything did happen, DLP has outstanding medical facilities, there is an excellent hospital extremely close by, and flights are pretty cheap to get out there to be with him if you needed to. Your oldest will (and I do understand this sounds callous) need to understand that his brother will have different opportunities in life sometimes, but it will also give you the chance to spend time with him individually and to give him experiences with just the two of you.