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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Please help me understand these bloody car seats!!!

32 replies

lookingforanswrra · 15/09/2023 13:12

https://www.johnlewis.com/joie-baby-i-spin-360-i-size-car-seat/p4071189

https://www.johnlewis.com/joie-baby-i-spin-safe-i-size-car-seat-coal/p5499712

why is one so much more expensive? I’m losing the will to live.

OP posts:
lookingforanswrra · 15/09/2023 13:12

This one also looks identical?!

https://www.johnlewis.com/joie-baby-i-spin-360-i-size-car-seat-cycle-shell-grey/p109964151

OP posts:
TheBarbieEffect · 15/09/2023 13:14

They’re all a waste of money and minimally tested.

360 spin seats do not give a good fit, especially for young babies. They’re big, bulky and become harder to put child in and out of as they get older.

The safest option is to fully max out your infant carrier then go straight to a Swedish plus tested ERF seat.

BertieBotts · 15/09/2023 13:17

They are basically identical - the i-Spin Safe is the rear facing only version, whereas the i-Spin 360 can be spun 360 degrees (forward facing or rear facing)

The rear facing only version has passed the Swedish plus test which is a test that measures neck loading and is supposedly a guarantee that the seat will protect a child from serious injury. Most of the time when you have a RF only and RF/FF version of spin seats, they are the same, the RF only one just doesn't have the slot to allow it to lock into place FF. However the Joie does have a slightly different shaped headrest, which I assume means that they had to make some changes to the design to get it to pass the plus test.

Which means that, the usual logic that a RF/FF version of a RF only seat is just as safe as the RF only version if you use it RF only, may not apply to these two models.

The Spin Safe isn't popular in the UK because only a very tiny portion of consumers care about the plus test or even know what it is, and most of them tend to buy 25kg limit seats like the Axkid Minikid anyway. So it remains an import seat and that's why it's expensive. Whereas the 360 versions of the Joie spin seats are extremely popular, because they offer premium features (spin, isofix, ERF up to 18kg) for a budget price. And Joie trade on price so they are frequently discounted. The Spin Safe is not so frequently discounted as it is not frequently stocked.

Your third link is the same seat as the first link, in a different colour.

OP posts:
lookingforanswrra · 15/09/2023 13:20

@BertieBotts thanks. What actually is the best car seat for safety then? Do
you happen to know? Not bothered about money on this as want it to be safe. Thank you!!

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 15/09/2023 13:20

Um, no, the Joie seats are not minimally tested. The i-Spin 360 is one of the better scoring seats on the ADAC test, and the i-Spin Safe is Swedish Plus tested.

Confused

They are usually not the best option if you want to RF for a long time, because you can get much longer lasting ERF seats and also the leg room in the Joie spin seats is extremely limited, but they are decent options in terms of safety.

ShirleyPhallus · 15/09/2023 13:22

BertieBotts · 15/09/2023 13:17

They are basically identical - the i-Spin Safe is the rear facing only version, whereas the i-Spin 360 can be spun 360 degrees (forward facing or rear facing)

The rear facing only version has passed the Swedish plus test which is a test that measures neck loading and is supposedly a guarantee that the seat will protect a child from serious injury. Most of the time when you have a RF only and RF/FF version of spin seats, they are the same, the RF only one just doesn't have the slot to allow it to lock into place FF. However the Joie does have a slightly different shaped headrest, which I assume means that they had to make some changes to the design to get it to pass the plus test.

Which means that, the usual logic that a RF/FF version of a RF only seat is just as safe as the RF only version if you use it RF only, may not apply to these two models.

The Spin Safe isn't popular in the UK because only a very tiny portion of consumers care about the plus test or even know what it is, and most of them tend to buy 25kg limit seats like the Axkid Minikid anyway. So it remains an import seat and that's why it's expensive. Whereas the 360 versions of the Joie spin seats are extremely popular, because they offer premium features (spin, isofix, ERF up to 18kg) for a budget price. And Joie trade on price so they are frequently discounted. The Spin Safe is not so frequently discounted as it is not frequently stocked.

Your third link is the same seat as the first link, in a different colour.

What an amazingly informative response

BertieBotts · 15/09/2023 13:23

It totally depends on your child and your car.

What age, weight, height is your child? What seat are they in now? What's your reason for moving them? Do you have any considerations for the seat e.g. need leg space for adult in front, need to move seat regularly from car to car etc? Any siblings to take into account?

Without knowing anything at all I'd say Besafe Stretch or Axkid One2 are probably the best seats on the market right now covering as many bases as possible, but they might not suit every situation.

The safest options are the ones that have passed the Swedish plus test, so if safety is your absolute top priority above all else, then that should be a criteria. Secondly that the seat allows for rear facing as long as possible.

BertieBotts · 15/09/2023 13:24

ShirleyPhallus · 15/09/2023 13:22

What an amazingly informative response

Grin Thanks!!

To be fair, this was EXTREMELY lucky timing - I happened to be idling on Active just as OP posted, and I already knew the answer. I do not usually spit out such info within 5 mins of a question being answered!

BertieBotts · 15/09/2023 13:26

Oh, and the reason the grey one is £20 more expensive is because the cover is made from recycled bottles. The black one is just made from ordinary fabric. Not recycled. (That part I did not know until I went and looked at the links!)

cupofdecaf · 15/09/2023 13:26

Axkid have a very good reputation for rear facing seats.

lookingforanswrra · 15/09/2023 13:30

I don’t get why some joie are Swedish tested and some aren’t? Does it matter @BertieBotts ? I wanted one that faces forward and back but the Swedish tested one is only rear facing… or is that part of the test…ie it’s approved as it isn’t forward facing?

OP posts:
lookingforanswrra · 15/09/2023 13:31

@cupofdecaf thank you

OP posts:
PenelopePlant · 15/09/2023 13:34

TheBarbieEffect · 15/09/2023 13:14

They’re all a waste of money and minimally tested.

360 spin seats do not give a good fit, especially for young babies. They’re big, bulky and become harder to put child in and out of as they get older.

The safest option is to fully max out your infant carrier then go straight to a Swedish plus tested ERF seat.

Edited

Agreed. The research evidence is there for anyone to read.

We have axkid minikid 2, it's great.

cupofdecaf · 15/09/2023 13:36

There's a good Facebook group call car seat safety uk. Join and then you can post for recommendations. Include you child's age, hight and weight plus any preferences you have such as a spin seat or if you car is very small, 3 door, you want isofix, need to change cars a lot etc. you can also give a budget. They will recommend.
Depending on where you are there may be a shop they can recommend. In York there's Paul stride near the football ground that does advice on rear facing car seats and stocks Axkid and similar seats.

BertieBotts · 15/09/2023 13:37

The Swedish plus test looks at neck forces, as they consider this the highest risk to children in car accidents. Neck forces are so much higher in forward facing seats that they can't pass the test, so manufacturers don't bother putting their seats forward for testing if they can forward face, as they would have to pass it in both directions, and they know the FF direction would not pass.

There are some other recent changes to the test which basically mean that you can't test a FF seat even if you wanted to, but there never used to be a stipulation on direction, as far as I understand. It's simply the case that the forward facing seats could never pass.

All the seats that have a Swedish Plus Test pass are rear facing only. Some of them are up to 18kf/105cm (approx 4 years) and some of them are up to 25kg/125cm (approx 7 years). Taller children outgrow at a younger age, shorter children can stay in the seats longer, that's why ages are only ever approximate.

PassMeTheCookies · 15/09/2023 13:37

I was going to reply, then saw the Monarch of car seats, Bertie has replied! Bertie's advice is always spot on where car seat safety is concerned. You will see many a thread re: car seats with brilliant advice from Bertie. You're in safe hands with their advice! ❤️

BertieBotts · 15/09/2023 13:39

You've said that you want the best car seat for safety, but you also want one which goes both forward and backward facing.

These are not compatible wants - which one do you want more?

(Also the age/weight/height stats of child would be really helpful! Or just anything that you know, e.g. not yet born / 9 months and average size / 6 months and in age 12 month clothing etc)

lookingforanswrra · 15/09/2023 13:39

@BertieBotts thanks that is so so helpful! I’m now conflicted as I thought facing both ways would be good but obviously now I know it’s not as safe… the fun continues

OP posts:
lookingforanswrra · 15/09/2023 13:40

@BertieBotts she is massive for her age! She’s 9 months now and 74cm… which he why I am worrying. We have isofox so it needs to be compatible. I am absolutely hating researching this, it’s not my thing at all!

OP posts:
Viewfrommyhouse · 15/09/2023 13:51

lookingforanswrra · 15/09/2023 13:40

@BertieBotts she is massive for her age! She’s 9 months now and 74cm… which he why I am worrying. We have isofox so it needs to be compatible. I am absolutely hating researching this, it’s not my thing at all!

What weight is she? Assuming she still fits in the infant carrier, max her out of that, and then replace with a 25kg ERF seat - if she's over the 50th centile for weight, she'll likely outgrow any 18kg seat before she's ready for a HBB.

Note - most 25Kg seats do not use isofix. Why do you want isofix? As long as the seat is installed correctly, it's no safer than a belted & tethered seat.

BertieBotts · 15/09/2023 13:55

The reason some car seats are Swedish tested and some are not - it's not a legally required test basically.

Every car seat you buy in EU/UK has to pass one of the legal standards set up in EU legislation - either ECE R44 or ECE R129 - the R44 is an older one. That's law. It's illegal to market a product as a car seat, child safety seat, child restraint etc if it doesn't conform to one of these standards.

When Sweden joined the EU in the 1990s, they had been rear facing their kids for decades already. They already had a test which basically allowed only rear facing seats to be sold, which was their own local standard, the T-Standard. But on joining the EU one of the things they had to agree to was to scrap their own child seat laws and adopt the EU regulation, which at that time and to this day, was less stringent than the T-standard.

So the Swedish road safety authority created a test which would mimic the T-standard, and they decided that although they would accept the ECE R44 standard, they could offer this optional but highly recommended "Plus Test" certificate, that manufacturers could opt to put their seats through, and therefore market them as being just as safe as the old, safer, Swedish standard.

The rest of the world knows nothing of this. Car seat manufacturers throughough the 90s and 2000s continued to make rear-facing only seats for the Nordic market, and forward facing only seats for the rest of the European market (UK, Germany, France, etc). It was not possible at this time to buy an extended rear facing seat in the UK. The only ones were up to 13kg rear facing, and then forward facing to 18kg. Even though there are perfectly legal 18kg or 25kg limit rear facing seats being produced to the R44 standard, some of them in British factories (!) and being shipped to Sweden and Norway and Finland to sell there.

Then came the internet. So parenting forums existed and people started sharing info about car seat safety and about Sweden's propensity to rear face all their kids up until around 3-4 years of age. And some people wanted to import these seats. This was really difficult for a while, then some specialist retailers (like the in car safety centre) started to stock them, though they were very worried that people would install them incorrectly so you had to go and have them fitted in person. It was about 10 years ago that things started to really change and it got much easier to buy ERF car seats in the UK. (I could go on but I've rambled enough!)

So - anyway - back to the point of why - manufacturers do the Plus test on seats that they want to market in the Nordic markets because consumers in general look for that marker there, whereas the majority of UK consumers don't know what it is and wouldn't look for it. And in fact, it's harder to market a purely RF seat in the general European market, because the VAST majority of parents want to forward face at some point, and feel worried about choosing a purely RF seat, mainly because we are unfamiliar with them in general and people like to go with what they know. So they assume that they will FF at some point, even if they have received the message about RF being safer.

As for whether it matters - kind of depends what you mean by matters. It's possible that there are combined RF/FF seats that, when used exclusively RF, will protect just as well as a plus tested one. But having the plus test means that you know that it HAS been tested to that standard and passed.

Cucucucu · 15/09/2023 14:00

Buy Swedish plus tested car seats , forget how they look or fashion and focus on rear facing as long as possible with a properly safe car seat .
we had a serious accident when my daughter was a toddler , the paramedics rushed to her as the firemen took her in her seat of the car , I was still stuck in the car and they where shouting asking me if she was rear facing or forward . When I said rear facing their whole body language changed to relief , both me and my oldest had injuries and my daughter didn’t have a single scratch

LaRevolution · 15/09/2023 14:00

PassMeTheCookies · 15/09/2023 13:37

I was going to reply, then saw the Monarch of car seats, Bertie has replied! Bertie's advice is always spot on where car seat safety is concerned. You will see many a thread re: car seats with brilliant advice from Bertie. You're in safe hands with their advice! ❤️

Was just about to post similar - @BertieBotts you've been giving excellent advice on car seats on here for bloomin years and you must have made a confusing area SO much simpler and safer for so many parents.

BertieBotts · 15/09/2023 14:02

If you are looking for something that is compatible with the isofix that you have, then I assume you mean a base that you bought with your infant carrier seat? Generally, these only take one or sometimes two specific models of toddler seat from the same manufacturer. Most of the time there is a rear facing option, but they are hardly ever plus tested. (But as said, this doesn't necessarily matter.)

Neither of the Joie seats you linked will go into an isofix base that you already have, they have their own base already attached. The majority of toddler seats are like this - the idea that the base will take a toddler seat as well is a bit of a con (sorry!!) There are a few combos where it's cost effective to do this, but most of the time it isn't.

If you want something to last long height wise and you want the safety of rear facing, then you probably want a seat up to 125cm. But as your LO is currently only 74cm, you won't be able to put her in the older style ones which are from 9kg. You will need one of the newer seats which are typically 61-125cm. If your infant seat has more capacity, you could keep her where she is for now, and then you'll have more choice once she reaches the limit.

It sounds like your best option would be to find a local specialist ERF retailer. You can use this map to find an Axkid retailer, most of them have other brands too. https://axkid.com/uk/find-a-retailer-near-you/

Here you can buy Axkid products | Find our retailers | Axkid

Do you want to buy a car seat or other accessory from Axkid? We have created a map where you can easily find your nearest store.

https://axkid.com/uk/find-a-retailer-near-you