Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Slavery and Colonialism Are Everyone’s History

594 replies

GodessOfThunder · 13/09/2023 17:52

I was on a thread recently where posters were complaining of slavery and colonialism being “shoehorned” into exhibitions, and were strongly “pushing back” against it being given prominence as a topic in museums and at historic sites. Indeed, transatlantic slavery and colonialism often seem to be regarded as niche historical subjects of interest more to people of colour, and involving only a small number of rich white slave owners and colonial officials.

This perception however, does not reflect reality. Transatlantic slavery effected not only millions of Africans, but pretty much everyone in Britain too. Similarly, colonialism effected not only millions of subjects in the British Empire, but everyone “at home” also. The economy these projects fuelled changed what ordinary people ate and drank and what they wore. They changed how British people thought about non-European people in ways that continue to shape their mindset and create injustice today. Slavery and colonialism helped fund the Industrial Revolution and the jobs people in Britain performed, and much more too.

I’m not suggesting anyone today should feel guilty for these activities. But, these subjects are still all too often not regarded as part of all of our histories. This means attempts to give them proper prominence are met with resistance. If we are to understand British history at a public level properly there is still a great deal of work to do.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
GodessOfThunder · 17/09/2023 17:41

CallumDansTransitVan · 17/09/2023 17:27

Ah so you are saying the education system is not impartial and that the coming additions are still not enough?

Let me answer your highlighted parts which are all about political impartiality in teaching.
When teaching about the decriminalisation of homosexuality in the UK, teachers should not present discriminatory opposing beliefs held at the time in an uncritical manner or as acceptable in our society today;
That reads to me they should not present statements of homophobia as acceptable, even if it was the norm at the time it was said. Doesn't seem unreasonable. Not sure what the sexuality discussion has to do with black history but here we are.

Teachers also should not present opposing views to the fundamental underpinnings to our society, like freedom of speech and protection from violence and criminal activity;
Why would that be unacceptable?

  • When teaching about racism, teachers should be clear that it has no place in our society – but should avoid advocating for specific organisations that have widely contested aims or views; and
  • When teaching younger students about historical figures with contested legacies, it may be advisable to focus on what these figures are most renowned for and factual information about them, if teachers think pupils may not be able understand the contested aspects of their lives, beliefs and actions.

Of course they should not advocate for groups with widely contested views. That applies to all groups. A teacher speaking positivly for the National front would be rightly so hauled over the coals., Same with ISIS or any other number of similar type groups. Again why is that a bad thing?

When teaching younger students, of course a teacher has to be careful not to instill a false narrative in the childs mind, until the child is mature enough to understand all the nuances involved. The good, bad and ugly. Nobody is saying the bad bits cannot be taught. Just that the teaching has to be age and maturity appropriate.

I notice you missed out this important bit with regards to discussing contentious issues, direct from the front page of your link.

Will this prevent teachers from exploring important modern movements like #metoo?No. We want teachers to be able to discuss contemporary issues and movements with their pupils to help them understand them better. This guidance should help them do that in a way that separates out political views from the issues themselves.
That is exactly how it should be. Ensuring that Women (and everyone) have their rights as a human respected should start in the young. But no it shouldn't be used to support discriminatory feminist ideology. The same applies to all contentious issues. As previously stated the only proviso seems to be to ensure the student has the required level of maturity to completely understand what is being discussed.

Eleganz
We have to accept the time limitations when teaching any subject. In science you have a student in a classroom with science subjects including chemistry, biology & physics to cover in perhaps 4 hours a week during term time. Where do you concentrate on if you start throwing the history of the science into the mix.

Edited

Is it fair to summarise this comment as “I agree with the regulations?”

OP posts:
CallumDansTransitVan · 17/09/2023 17:49

GodessOfThunder · 17/09/2023 17:41

Is it fair to summarise this comment as “I agree with the regulations?”

It gives my unbiased answer to every point made by MCout. It gives my interpretation of what has been given to teachers. Do you feel the guidance given is incorrect and which of these points do you feel are wrong?

nonheme · 17/09/2023 17:59

Middlelanehogger · 16/09/2023 13:45

If you want to imply that British values are racist, come out and say it directly.

where is this implied?

GodessOfThunder · 17/09/2023 18:42

CallumDansTransitVan · 17/09/2023 17:49

It gives my unbiased answer to every point made by MCout. It gives my interpretation of what has been given to teachers. Do you feel the guidance given is incorrect and which of these points do you feel are wrong?

I disagree with this for older pupils (if the regs apply to them - ignore if they don’t)

“Teachers also should not present opposing views to the fundamental underpinnings to our society”

Meanings are constructed vs through a binary. If you understand the opposing view you understand the “fundamental underpinning” idea better.

OP posts:
CallumDansTransitVan · 17/09/2023 20:34

GodessOfThunder · 17/09/2023 18:42

I disagree with this for older pupils (if the regs apply to them - ignore if they don’t)

“Teachers also should not present opposing views to the fundamental underpinnings to our society”

Meanings are constructed vs through a binary. If you understand the opposing view you understand the “fundamental underpinning” idea better.

I take the fundamental underpinnings of our society to mean everyone.
The examples given by the guidance are freedom of speech and protection from violence and criminal activity, do you think any of these are things that we should change? What basic undrpinnings of UK society do you think should be up for debate at school level?

GodessOfThunder · 17/09/2023 20:37

CallumDansTransitVan · 17/09/2023 20:34

I take the fundamental underpinnings of our society to mean everyone.
The examples given by the guidance are freedom of speech and protection from violence and criminal activity, do you think any of these are things that we should change? What basic undrpinnings of UK society do you think should be up for debate at school level?

It’s fine to look at the counter positions for any “fundamental underpinning”.

OP posts:
ProfessorLayton1 · 17/09/2023 20:55

This is quite a sensitive area and if anyone interested in slavery and colonisation, I would really recommend the below podcast.
It is a fantastic series.

podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/empire/id1639561921?i=1000611374663

CallumDansTransitVan · 17/09/2023 22:13

GodessOfThunder · 17/09/2023 20:37

It’s fine to look at the counter positions for any “fundamental underpinning”.

But which of these underpinnings would be suitable for debate among teenagers? The thing you seem to be asking for is being implemented in Schools. What you seem to be suggesting is far too deep for eg 14 or 15 year olds to fully comprehend without some life experience.

After all these are the same stroppy teenagers who slam doors and scream I hate you when asked to wash the dishes. Leave deep level sociology cultural discussions for university etc. Where they are stroppy teenagers who 'we just don't understand' and ignore. Couple of years of being skint will soon make them realise how well off they were.

Hawkins0009 · 18/09/2023 00:02

does history of slavery at universities etc , teach how slavery begin originally in ancient times ?

DdraigGoch · 18/09/2023 01:03

Ponoka7 · 13/09/2023 18:11

The issue with what you've written is millions of WC people, including children died from malnutrition, inadequate housing and their working life, so want that acknowledged as much as slavery. Indented servants and the workhouses/children in prison were as bad as slavery. Then there's the transportation to Australia etc. It's obscene when you consider that we were once subsidence farmers until our lands were seized , given away (sometimes to vikings etc) or rented back to us. Then cycles of absolute poverty were deliberately created. Personally I think us and the slaves had a common enemy, the divide was deliberate. There's not enough recognition of the plight of the WC, how industry was destroyed etc.

Yes, Lord Penrhyn owned Jamaican plantations but the residents of Bethesda weren't exactly fond of him either. The quarrymen were treated appallingly and the Great Strike was the longest in British history.

TomPinch · 18/09/2023 01:06

I'm in New Zealand and references to the Empire and colonization are now wholly negative, leastways among the intelligentsia. A reappraisal and acknowledgment of the harm done to Maori is totally appropriate in my view and it's long overdue.

But what is it also happening is a narrative that everything bad in NZ society is due to British colonialism. This clearly makes no sense as modern NZ society is wealthy and based on cultural values imported with colonialism. A high profile NZ historian recently made the claim in the media that domestic violence was not known in Maori society. There is no evidential basis for this claim, and plenty of evidence for the opposite. The fact that she made it anyway suggests a line that academics are expected to take.

We have moved from a simplistic celebration of empire to a simplistic scapegoating of it, and I see no advantage in this, and certainly nothing I'd regard as education over ideology. In fact, it potentially undermines every civil institution built in colonial NZ, including Parliament and the courts.

The problems that do exist in NZ society won't be solved by the diagnosis being pushed, although no doubt it will be implemented and we will all be told it's worked regardless of anything else.

I see the same happening with discussions on the UK's involvement transatlantic slave trade. In the past, emphasis was on its abolition due to a campaign by evangelical Christians. The particular fact has now been replaced solely with the slave trade itself. It's one partial narrative being replaced with another for political motives so I find myself unenthused by it all.

GodessOfThunder · 18/09/2023 05:40

CallumDansTransitVan · 17/09/2023 22:13

But which of these underpinnings would be suitable for debate among teenagers? The thing you seem to be asking for is being implemented in Schools. What you seem to be suggesting is far too deep for eg 14 or 15 year olds to fully comprehend without some life experience.

After all these are the same stroppy teenagers who slam doors and scream I hate you when asked to wash the dishes. Leave deep level sociology cultural discussions for university etc. Where they are stroppy teenagers who 'we just don't understand' and ignore. Couple of years of being skint will soon make them realise how well off they were.

As my DC’s school (state, non selective) several of these debates are already taught successfully.

OP posts:
CallumDansTransitVan · 18/09/2023 14:05

GodessOfThunder · 18/09/2023 05:40

As my DC’s school (state, non selective) several of these debates are already taught successfully.

You have me a bit puzzled then. We have since you started this thread discovered that

  1. History of Slavery has been taught for countless years and is going to be given further inclusion in 2024.
  2. You imply that certain topics like societal underpinnings weren't be included in schools. Then go on to say your own children are covering them.
Can you please tell us which of these underpinnings are under debate at your local school?

TomPinch
Thank you for that. Incredibly interesting to hear perspectives from outside the UK.

GodessOfThunder · 18/09/2023 14:09

CallumDansTransitVan · 18/09/2023 14:05

You have me a bit puzzled then. We have since you started this thread discovered that

  1. History of Slavery has been taught for countless years and is going to be given further inclusion in 2024.
  2. You imply that certain topics like societal underpinnings weren't be included in schools. Then go on to say your own children are covering them.
Can you please tell us which of these underpinnings are under debate at your local school?

TomPinch
Thank you for that. Incredibly interesting to hear perspectives from outside the UK.

Let me ask you a question: would you say you are prejudiced against Black people?

Because I think you are based on your contributions to this thread.

OP posts:
CallumDansTransitVan · 18/09/2023 14:46

GodessOfThunder · 18/09/2023 14:09

Let me ask you a question: would you say you are prejudiced against Black people?

Because I think you are based on your contributions to this thread.

Edited

Why won't you answer the simple question of which basic underpinnings of British society need debated in your opinion?

No I am not prejudiced against anyone. Questioning what appears to be a false narrative is not racism, preujudice or anything else you may wish to call it.

Panama2 · 20/09/2023 18:22

So reading through the responses what leaps out to me is that what is referred to as British or English colonialism or oppression is really the wealthy taking advantage and becoming more wealthy.

Grantanow · 01/10/2023 12:15

Panama2 · 20/09/2023 18:22

So reading through the responses what leaps out to me is that what is referred to as British or English colonialism or oppression is really the wealthy taking advantage and becoming more wealthy.

I think this is an important point. People who argue that all of us in the UK benefitted from slavery because our country got ahead economically, etc., are correct in principle but the distribution of the proceeds has been very inequitable and the direct benefits were conferred on a few aristocratic and similar families who made fortunes. Moreover, the economic state of the working classes has been poor until post-WW2: they were exploited economically by those who had built fortunes and were effectively wage slaves with little prospect of advancement. Their position has improved somewhat since 1945 but we still live in a very unequal society which seems to be deteriorating. The economic development of the UK has also depended on invention, innovation and the availability of its natural resources. We cannot say whether the UK might not have advanced further in the absence of slavery because we don't know what other advances might have been made if, for example, ports like Bristol and Liverpool had failed to develop and industrial development had had to find alternative ways of raising capital other than the proceeds of slavery. Those of us alive today were not responsible for the slave trade and in my view almost all of us need feel no guilt for historical events, nor, given the inequitable distribution of benefits, need we feel the need to offer reparations. I except those who have inherited great wealth from slavery.

CampsieGlamper · 05/10/2023 08:41

I agree. Debate, with a suitable referee or chairperson is what I felt was one of the better parts of my education. Debating a issue which may or may not be contentious, particularly if you hold opposing beliefs but are required to defend the opposite view, after research helps develop excellent personal qualities.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread