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Slavery and Colonialism Are Everyone’s History

594 replies

GodessOfThunder · 13/09/2023 17:52

I was on a thread recently where posters were complaining of slavery and colonialism being “shoehorned” into exhibitions, and were strongly “pushing back” against it being given prominence as a topic in museums and at historic sites. Indeed, transatlantic slavery and colonialism often seem to be regarded as niche historical subjects of interest more to people of colour, and involving only a small number of rich white slave owners and colonial officials.

This perception however, does not reflect reality. Transatlantic slavery effected not only millions of Africans, but pretty much everyone in Britain too. Similarly, colonialism effected not only millions of subjects in the British Empire, but everyone “at home” also. The economy these projects fuelled changed what ordinary people ate and drank and what they wore. They changed how British people thought about non-European people in ways that continue to shape their mindset and create injustice today. Slavery and colonialism helped fund the Industrial Revolution and the jobs people in Britain performed, and much more too.

I’m not suggesting anyone today should feel guilty for these activities. But, these subjects are still all too often not regarded as part of all of our histories. This means attempts to give them proper prominence are met with resistance. If we are to understand British history at a public level properly there is still a great deal of work to do.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
Hawkins0009 · 15/09/2023 22:51

GodessOfThunder · 15/09/2023 22:50

Sorry, I don’t understand your post. What does “?” refer to?

thats added for the puzzlement of me trying to understand your points so i can learn more from your perspectives

GodessOfThunder · 15/09/2023 22:58

MoxieFox · 15/09/2023 22:49

I don’t know why the facts of history are taken so personally by people living today for only the slave trade. It is truly astonishing.

I can only assume it’s because they feel threatened.

perhaps because:

their family benefited from the trade

they are racist, or, to be kinder, just don’t understand that there is ongoing racial injustice rooted in slavery and imperialism.

they perversely have their personal pride and identity rooted in the past, in actions they can take no credit for, and feel uncomfortable with any undermining of Britains “achievements” in the past.

OP posts:
Hawkins0009 · 15/09/2023 22:59

how are we ment to feel and how much are we ment to know about the past ?

GodessOfThunder · 15/09/2023 23:00

Hawkins0009 · 15/09/2023 22:59

how are we ment to feel and how much are we ment to know about the past ?

you asked the question. Tell us…

OP posts:
BrideNovToBe · 15/09/2023 23:03

Late to the party and haven't RTFT OP. But your desired outcome is unclear.
For example, what do you mean by 'understanding British history at a public level properly'? What would you define as 'proper'?
Forget slavery and colonialism, many things that MN supposedly deems 'proper British history' most of the general public don't even know, or care.

Most people are struggling to heat their homes and feed their children, incidentally this is not just 'white people' but everyone! Especially minorities on the breadline. Nobody spends their limited headspace 'understanding history properly'.

Quite frankly as someone from a South Asian/Black background the people who are free enough to sit around and bang the drum about this also tend to be the more privileged. Bearing in mind that, during the slave trade, many sold off their own... the same few rich families in certain countries send their kids to study abroad/move abroad, whine about racism but their own families' wealth comes from corruption and stealing from their own country people.

Educational programs, hardship funds, all the money raised for promoting 'history' could be better used to actually help people but no we all want to be obsessed with the past. People know slavery & colonialism was a big part of the UK's history. And then? What action are they supposed to take based on that?

I think specific things like Britain's colonial history in school, exhibitions etc fair enough but to emphasize that people 'should understand properly' doesn't really make sense to me. Even if you teach it in schools. How many people even remember what they learnt?

Hawkins0009 · 15/09/2023 23:05

actually im out of my depth in this subject, i believe the best qualified people would be history academics at various universities including Oxbridge etc to offer a full analysis of the points in this thread

Callmesleepy · 15/09/2023 23:16

You may not be saying that the people who benefited from the trade without knowing it were bad but it is being said by some people which has a negative impact on people today.

Personally I've been treated negatively based on the colour of my skin with the slave trade and it's legacy used as an excuse. I don't mean positive discrimination that didn't work in my favour, I mean actual physical aggression because of what people like me did to people like them. I strongly doubt it's as bad as the average person of colour experiences (obviously there's a scale there because of intersectionality), but it's not an improvement when young people are being taught that they're split into two groups based on the colour of their skin. We have to teach that everyone in history can be good and bad if we want children to believe it of people today.

user9630721458 · 15/09/2023 23:17

Resistance to the negative aspects of one's country's history is not unique to Britain. I am amazed how little is taught in Canada about the fate of the indigenous people at the hands of European settlers. Japan does not teach about the genocide of the Chinese people. I can't speak for how the rest of the world teaches History, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is widespread censorship and denial of less palatable topics. People identify strongly with their ancestry and nationality. The only country I know of that is brutally honest about their history is Germany. I'm told they cover the subject of WWII and their role in it very thoroughly in schools.

GodessOfThunder · 15/09/2023 23:23

BrideNovToBe · 15/09/2023 23:03

Late to the party and haven't RTFT OP. But your desired outcome is unclear.
For example, what do you mean by 'understanding British history at a public level properly'? What would you define as 'proper'?
Forget slavery and colonialism, many things that MN supposedly deems 'proper British history' most of the general public don't even know, or care.

Most people are struggling to heat their homes and feed their children, incidentally this is not just 'white people' but everyone! Especially minorities on the breadline. Nobody spends their limited headspace 'understanding history properly'.

Quite frankly as someone from a South Asian/Black background the people who are free enough to sit around and bang the drum about this also tend to be the more privileged. Bearing in mind that, during the slave trade, many sold off their own... the same few rich families in certain countries send their kids to study abroad/move abroad, whine about racism but their own families' wealth comes from corruption and stealing from their own country people.

Educational programs, hardship funds, all the money raised for promoting 'history' could be better used to actually help people but no we all want to be obsessed with the past. People know slavery & colonialism was a big part of the UK's history. And then? What action are they supposed to take based on that?

I think specific things like Britain's colonial history in school, exhibitions etc fair enough but to emphasize that people 'should understand properly' doesn't really make sense to me. Even if you teach it in schools. How many people even remember what they learnt?

Edited

I’m fine with the outcome being “unclear”. This isn’t a business meeting to agree targets and metics. It’s an exploratory discussion.

OP posts:
Hawkins0009 · 15/09/2023 23:30

GodessOfThunder · 15/09/2023 23:23

I’m fine with the outcome being “unclear”. This isn’t a business meeting to agree targets and metics. It’s an exploratory discussion.

but then that just makes the end results a mixed perspectives where group one suggests x, etc.

GodessOfThunder · 15/09/2023 23:32

Hawkins0009 · 15/09/2023 23:30

but then that just makes the end results a mixed perspectives where group one suggests x, etc.

What do you suggest to remedy this?

OP posts:
BrideNovToBe · 15/09/2023 23:35

GodessOfThunder · 15/09/2023 23:23

I’m fine with the outcome being “unclear”. This isn’t a business meeting to agree targets and metics. It’s an exploratory discussion.

But what exactly are you exploring? (also I notice you have nothing to say about any of my other points).
If you're saying that these subjects are not regarded as 'part of our histories' - by whom in real life? Of course, I'm no statistician, but those who are in any way clued up about history are well aware in my experience.
Those who aren't clued up aren't really clued up about 'history' in general, they're aware of slave trade and colonialism of course but it, like many other things (for example WWII) doesn't occupy enough of their thoughts such that they think the former is of less importance than the latter. They don't really think about it.

Your OP spoke about injustices today, but many of the people who don't 'understand history' still behave fairly towards other people.

My belief is that humans will always seek division. Linking teaching history to more 'justice' is really not going to happen. Many of the most prejudiced people, the upper classes and well-off know. They just don't want to do anything about it and don't care, the same way they don't care about the poor, the disabled or anybody else/anything that allows them to preserve their influence at the expense of others.

Hawkins0009 · 15/09/2023 23:36

GodessOfThunder · 15/09/2023 23:32

What do you suggest to remedy this?

if everyone knew about the past, in theory the future wouldent be a repeat of the past, but as majority of people know parts of the past then those that can afford to cover the costs etc to educate the masses in more detail about the past then mainstream media could foot the bill for the vast public projects via raising funds partly from advertising, sponsors etc and have every newspaper covering detailed articles of various aspects of slavery.

MCOut · 15/09/2023 23:47

BrideNovToBe · 15/09/2023 23:03

Late to the party and haven't RTFT OP. But your desired outcome is unclear.
For example, what do you mean by 'understanding British history at a public level properly'? What would you define as 'proper'?
Forget slavery and colonialism, many things that MN supposedly deems 'proper British history' most of the general public don't even know, or care.

Most people are struggling to heat their homes and feed their children, incidentally this is not just 'white people' but everyone! Especially minorities on the breadline. Nobody spends their limited headspace 'understanding history properly'.

Quite frankly as someone from a South Asian/Black background the people who are free enough to sit around and bang the drum about this also tend to be the more privileged. Bearing in mind that, during the slave trade, many sold off their own... the same few rich families in certain countries send their kids to study abroad/move abroad, whine about racism but their own families' wealth comes from corruption and stealing from their own country people.

Educational programs, hardship funds, all the money raised for promoting 'history' could be better used to actually help people but no we all want to be obsessed with the past. People know slavery & colonialism was a big part of the UK's history. And then? What action are they supposed to take based on that?

I think specific things like Britain's colonial history in school, exhibitions etc fair enough but to emphasize that people 'should understand properly' doesn't really make sense to me. Even if you teach it in schools. How many people even remember what they learnt?

Edited

You’re contradicting yourself. Are you saying that inclusive colonial history is a waste of money or that it’s fair enough? Please choose one. Money is spent on white history but am I to gather that’s ok with you and it’s only a problem if a small amount that same money gets used for more inclusive education.

If the former, knowledge will lead to empathy and the reduction of racist stereotypes which feed into institutional racism and consciously or unconsciously affect poc outcomes. I also value education and it’s ability to pull people out poverty so I’m sorry but hardship funds are most definitely money well spent. Why should poor people have to drop out of uni?!

If you’re worried that it’s pointless because people don’t remember what they learned, I’m sorry to tell you that is not the universal experience.

I’m assuming if you think this is a waste of time then you’re lucky enough to never have experienced overt or covert racism. To me this is definitely a privilege. Is it that you look at racial disparities and blame other poc or you don’t think institutional racism exists?

GodessOfThunder · 16/09/2023 00:01

Hawkins0009 · 15/09/2023 23:05

actually im out of my depth in this subject, i believe the best qualified people would be history academics at various universities including Oxbridge etc to offer a full analysis of the points in this thread

I agree ;)

OP posts:
MCOut · 16/09/2023 00:07

@BrideNovToBe Ok I get your point much better now. Respect your opinion but I think if I accepted that I would feel like I’m being defeatist. Personally, I think we owe it to the next generation to try.

Edited to include

“Your OP spoke about injustices today, but many of the people who don't 'understand history' still behave fairly towards other people.”

I fundamentally disagree with this. I don’t think most people are actively racist but for institutional racism to exist we must be socialising people to have racist ideas. Some of the common terrible ones have appeared on this thread. This doesn’t make someone inherently bad or evil, just human. It does imo mean if they don’t acknowledge it they can’t always be trusted to be fair.

1dayatatime · 16/09/2023 00:22

I just wish more effort was put into trying to stop slavery that is ongoing today in places like India (11 million slaves) and East Africa

freetheslaves.net/our-work/where-we-work/india/#:~:text=According%20to%20the%202023%20Global,human%20trafficking%2C%20and%20child%20exploitation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SlaveryinncontemporaryAfrica

lightisnotwhite · 16/09/2023 00:26

Not read the thread
Humans ( to be fair it’s largely driven by the male variant ) behave appalling.

Slavery and Colonialism have a lasting legacy. The problem is no one learns from it. It’s not actually a black/ white issue. Although I do understand in this context that ethnic communities vs white establishment have been wronged .

For me past mistakes are past mistakes but stop repeating them. On any scale. Stop people with money and a sense of superiority breaking communities because they think they can improve and then leaving when it all goes sour (and then blaming the community for being inept).

DameWhiskers · 16/09/2023 02:05

@ntmdino

That's precisely the problem. It's a fact that they were the sole abolitionists up to that point in human history - they used their military and political strength to force the rest of the developed world to stop trading in slaves, used the navy to forcibly free every slave on every shipping route they could find, and bought back slaves (and freed them) where they could do none of those things (and, as noted, we only paid that debt off in 2015).

You don't have to like it, but nobody can reasonably claim that it didn't happen.

Basically, you're suggesting the British brought an end to the commerce in slaves using shipping routes. However, colonial administrations were a force unto themselves and were free to utilise native and previously imported populations as slaves. In Australia this system didn't end until the 1970s. Can you imagine that? As I noted earlier in the thread, Britain up until 1965 or so was really seen as Australia's 'Mother country', and many Australians thought of themselves as English.

So I do have trouble seeing Britain as an all-mighty abolitionist, freeing every slave as they go.

nonheme · 16/09/2023 06:11

ntmdino · 15/09/2023 22:05

That's precisely the problem. It's a fact that they were the sole abolitionists up to that point in human history - they used their military and political strength to force the rest of the developed world to stop trading in slaves, used the navy to forcibly free every slave on every shipping route they could find, and bought back slaves (and freed them) where they could do none of those things (and, as noted, we only paid that debt off in 2015).

You don't have to like it, but nobody can reasonably claim that it didn't happen.

Indeed, the abolition of slavery is an essential historical event, but it's crucial to acknowledge the complex reality surrounding it. While some individuals advocated for its abolition, the majority were staunchly opposed, largely due to the enormous profitability of slavery. In fact, much of Britain's prosperity during that era was intricately tied to the institution of slavery.

To put it in perspective, likening the celebration of those who, after enslaving, raping, and killing others, decided to grant freedom is akin to placing an abductor and murderer on a pedestal because they eventually released their captive. Such a perspective raises significant moral and ethical concerns.

Superwooman · 16/09/2023 06:44

The problem imv is that a museum that berates me for the evils of my ancestors rather than tell interesting facts and interesting things won’t attract me to visit.

I wonder if Germans stroll round Auschwitz on a Sunday like we used to take DCs to the Science Museum. I’d be surprised.

nonheme · 16/09/2023 07:02

@ntmdino I might add that while slavery was officially abolished, its echoes lingered, and exploitation persisted in various forms. The British Empire continued its expansion and colonisation, seizing resources, land, and more for its own gain, often leaving the indigenous populations in dire circumstances. There were British concentration camps in Africa during the colonial period, particularly during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. These camps were overcrowded and lacked proper sanitation, leading to harsh living conditions and the spread of diseases like typhoid and dysentery. Hundred thousands of civilians, including women and children, died in these camps across different countries. This is all post slavery under British rule.

Under British rule in African colonies, for instance, black people were subject to segregation, with restricted access to certain areas within their own countries. They were often paid meager wages, working under conditions that resembled slavery. Even today, vestiges of this exploitation persist, with white landowners maintaining servant quarters for domestic workers living in substandard conditions with low pay. Many farmers still oversee large compounds where thousands of workers and their families reside without access to basic amenities like electricity.

The legacy of colonial agreements, such as the Lancaster House Agreement, raises questions about adherence and justice. While some land was returned, it took over 40 years, and the process remains incomplete. There are several modern examples abound of Britain's exploitation of other nations for profit. Consider the conflicts in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria, where Britain's involvement often seemed more motivated by resource access than national interests of those countries. Millions of innocent civilians died, with British-made weaponry further exacerbating the crises. When people from these war-torn regions seek refuge in Britain, it's essential to recognise that limited options drove them here (and our greed as Brits).

The aid directed to these impoverished nations often ends up enriching a select few politicians while allowing us to access their valuable raw materials with ease. For example, consider France's exploitation of uranium in Niger, purchasing it at a mere $0.82 per kilogram when the market price hovers around $200 per kilogram. French households benefit from Niger's energy resources, yet a staggering 90% of Niger's population lacks access to electricity. Meanwhile USA and France support military action in Niger to allow them to continue to steal resources from Africa.

We should also reflect on the profits that Britain continues to accrue from former colonies and current "Commonwealth" countries. Despite these economic gains, a significant portion of their populations continues to endure abject poverty. France, for instance, reaps over $500 billion annually from its former colonies. It is imperative that we cease the exploitation of other nations and engage in more equitable and sustainable practices. The Slave trade may have ended but modern slavery and exploitation thrives.

Hobbi · 16/09/2023 07:31

Superwooman · 16/09/2023 06:44

The problem imv is that a museum that berates me for the evils of my ancestors rather than tell interesting facts and interesting things won’t attract me to visit.

I wonder if Germans stroll round Auschwitz on a Sunday like we used to take DCs to the Science Museum. I’d be surprised.

Please give an example of being 'berated'; I don't think you are telling the truth.

mids2019 · 16/09/2023 08:03

There was posted who said they were out of their depth and the subject should be discussed by Oxbridge professors. I completely agree.

I don't think you decontextualise slavery from European empire building and tensions between the northern and southern states in the US. Both are massive subjects that easily can fill a degree course. One thing that has struck me about this thread is the knowledgibility of so many posters on this topic and the intricate debate on hiatory.

However this is not what I believe the OP wants from slavery education. I think underneath it all they want lessons on slavery to shock a contemporary audience to combat racism and lay the foundations for positive discrimination and add to the argument for reparations potnetially. It is history with an agenda.

I don't think you can have a truly historical lesson in a neutral sense of you want the lesson to promote a particular view point. I think students can see past this.

Spendonsend · 16/09/2023 08:24

Superwooman · 16/09/2023 06:44

The problem imv is that a museum that berates me for the evils of my ancestors rather than tell interesting facts and interesting things won’t attract me to visit.

I wonder if Germans stroll round Auschwitz on a Sunday like we used to take DCs to the Science Museum. I’d be surprised.

I've never been to a museum that berates me in the uk.

I have lived in germany, and the town i lived in had a little brass plaque in the floor all over the town. Each was the name of a holocaust victim and it wss placed outside their last known free address.

No one was berating anyone for that either. But i literally couldn't pop to the shop without being reminded.