Slavery and Colonialism Are Everyone’s History

[GodessOfThunder]

I was on a thread recently where posters were complaining of slavery and colonialism being “shoehorned” into exhibitions, and were strongly “pushing back” against it being given prominence as a topic in museums and at historic sites. Indeed, transatlantic slavery and colonialism often seem to be regarded as niche historical subjects of interest more to people of colour, and involving only a small number of rich white slave owners and colonial officials.

This perception however, does not reflect reality. Transatlantic slavery effected not only millions of Africans, but pretty much everyone in Britain too. Similarly, colonialism effected not only millions of subjects in the British Empire, but everyone “at home” also. The economy these projects fuelled changed what ordinary people ate and drank and what they wore. They changed how British people thought about non-European people in ways that continue to shape their mindset and create injustice today. Slavery and colonialism helped fund the Industrial Revolution and the jobs people in Britain performed, and much more too.

I’m not suggesting anyone today should feel guilty for these activities. But, these subjects are still all too often not regarded as part of all of our histories. This means attempts to give them proper prominence are met with resistance. If we are to understand British history at a public level properly there is still a great deal of work to do.

A bunch of privileged children tweeting nonsense shouldn’t be the basis of such a sweeping generalisation of “most people.”

Which is why I believe focussing on the sins of the past will never improve our lot going forward. Remove the claims of prejudice or privellege due to race, become brothers in arms with your working class neighbour. Then we can do something more meaningful.

It’s not just in the past. Racism is as real today as is classism. It’s not right to ask us to deny its existence, nor should you be denying it.

Think about the white working class of Britain. Did centuries of oppression not put them at a disadvantage? Are not the effects of that in terms of poverty, health, life opportunities and even lower life expectancy seen even today not the product of that? Did it all end on the day you got the right to vote and suddenly become a ‘sin of the past’? Of course not.

We cannot deny the legacy of slavery and racism any more than you can deny the legacy of class oppression and classism.

We are not all treated the same.

@LeaderBee

Trickle-down economics was applied in Mexico, where I live for over forty years and the poor got poorer and the rich got richer. Since the end of 2018, the government has applied an economic theory that could possibly be described as trickle up and despite covid and the war in Ukraine, 8 million people have left absolute poverty and the economy is booming.

But this is slightly changing the subject. What you are really referring to is trickle-down guilt. Does every woman who has ever had a c-section share in the guilt for the cruel experiments practiced on that poor slave?

@GodessOfThunder

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/identities/2019/8/16/20806069/slavery-economy-capitalism-violence-cotton-edward-baptist

Don't you want the judgment though if you want slavery to promote an anti racism agenda? I don't think when you talk about slavery you want the economic 'benefits' to be discussed but unfortunately if you are discussing slavery in a neutral impassionate way of an academic historian then it is part of the analysis (rather grimly).

So George Washington is neither a hero or villain when he made political decisions to stall a civil war by placating slaving states with new slaving laws and even creating new slaving states. Political decisions were made in the interests of the continuance of the USA ( the greatest nation on Earth?). I agree that he is neither hero or villain but maybe both and certainly one of the most important politicians in history.

The point is if you want slavery lessons to be anti racist George imho has to be all 'devil' which is obviously completely unrealistic and wrong.

I think you get similar nuanced and difficult arguments about statue removal. What happens if we have a national hero that was in some way complicit in slavery either directly or indirectly? Do we remove any statues or paintings which portray the person as one of high status and national respect? How and who makes those decisions?

If anti racism is the prime motivation for slavery lessons couldn't you argues simple up front diversity and inclusion lessons are more basic and 'up front' about their purpose?

Great point - I wasn’t aware of that - thanks

It sounds like you’re not a fan of studying history per se. I suggest that might be better discussed on its own thread.

@CallumDansTransitVan Wilfully ignoring evidence to promote an anti black agenda is racist and I will stand by that. You have google so if you don’t want to be accused of promoting racist ideas just interrogate what you are saying before you say it.

The statistics do not support what you are saying. Stacking shelves, driving trucks and being a nurse are funnily enough not the only jobs in the UK.

As of 2023 Tesco has been unable to publish an Ethnicity pay gap as according to their diversity and inclusion they don’t have enough data from their staff. Furthermore, Tesco is currently fighting a £4billion equal pay claim on the basis that women are being paid less than men for comparable work so your statement is deliberately misleading. It’s funny that the retail business pay reporting doesn’t even provide a figure for that attempts to compare like with like. I suspect that is so they can blame it on more men being in senior roles rather than confirming they are not paying people equally. It’s a very easy thing to disprove and it’s in their best interest to do so if they can.

Do you think it’s the women’s fault they are being paid less?

There is a 9% pay gap between black and white nurses across the NHS. For managers and senior managers it’s 10%.

What you are saying is dumb and you know it. That at most accounts for 1.6 deaths. Before anyone starts there is no apparent statistical variability when you look at deprivation ( I admit this was surprising).

Shall I add links? It’s just that the racists and apologists always ask for evidence then complain about being called out for racist behaviour when it becomes apparent they just like to harm others.

People who are highly committed activists on any issue tend to deploy historical narratives as part of their toolkit.

Some supporters of the ideologies you subscribe to yourself no doubt do the same.

Very good point. Indeed I'd rather any notional reparations be channeled into combatting modern slavery and exploitation than anything else. Although I think that a good historically accurate representation the transatlantic slave trade is a really good way of leading into improving awareness of modern slavery and how its impact is pervasive across society.

You’re very vocal in terms of hypotheses and very light on evidence-based knowledge.

Pretty much every point you’ve made on this thread can be easily debunked with readily available evidence.

You may want these things to be true as they prop up your preconceptions and prejudices. But most of them aren’t.

And don’t ask me to provide links. If you want to educate yourself you can do the work - it’s all out there.

Health: https://www.bhf.org.uk/what-we-do/our-research/research-successes/ethnicity-and-heart-disease
https://www.diabetes.org.uk/diabetes-the-basics/types-of-diabetes/type-2/diabetes-ethnicity
https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/health/diet-and-exercise/overweight-adults/latest

Education. You need to have a like for like comparison. The poor white boy from glasgow & the poor black boy from pekham or vice versa. I have never seen a report that gives those sort of figures.

Pay gaps. I'm using the NHS as it has been mentioned by somebody else. But the premise applies to other employers.
https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/research/the-ethnicity-pay-gap-in-the-english-nhs
The amount of possible variables mean it is incredibly easy to claim one is doing better than the other. As this report points out, white British staff get much less than Chinese. But to truly quantify that, you need to compare exact roles, years of service etc.
Far too many of these reports are made with their own agenda in mind.

I’m a historian. My job is is to explain, what happened, when, how and why. This involves investigating slavery in from its inception to its legacy of injustice that persists today.

This process is not about “judging” based on abstract criteria. It’s about understanding based on the available evidence.

Others can take this knowledge into debates about moral philosophy and social
policy.

People inevitable draw moral conclusions from historians’ works, but that isn’t their primary raisin d’etre.

Would you suggest we ditch studying WW2 in favour of “Peace Studies”, because, say, examining of Stalingrad shows war is incredibly destructive?

You’ve made a start. It’s a big topic. Keep
on going.

How do you take that from my post?

I'm very much in favour of studying history and I think an absolutely critical part of it is getting into the heads of the people at the time, understanding the norms of their era, understanding the economic forces that shaped their decisions etc.

99% of what I see every day about slavery and colonialism is that it was done by baddies who were problematic and evil. Maybe there's a bit of back-and-forth about whether or not their descendants inherit that guilt, but the guilt of the original people is assumed.

I think anyone who dives even slightly deeper into the specifics knows that it's not so black and white. There were some well-meaning people and some hard-hearted people just like any time in history, but the vast majority of the characters involved were doing what they thought made sense within their constraints, just like we do today. Different forms of slavery and colonialism exist today - and will in the future, the next time we are faced with similar constraints and economic factors. Simplifying the story to an anti-racism DEI parable means we lose out on the lessons we could potentially gain.

I’m a historian. My job is is to explain, what happened, when, how and why. This involves investigating slavery in from its inception to its legacy of injustice that persists today.

This process is not about “judging” based on abstract criteria. It’s about understanding based on the available evidence.

Sounds very good, however your second sentence is loaded with judgement despite your assurance its not about judging.

How so?

This

Yes exactly

Some of my ancestors were busy trying to escape persecution and death themselves.

2 generations back

I’m not terribly convinced by arguments which are along the lines of I have no evidence but …., If you have any evidence to back your assertion that white demographics will choose not to cover some topics then let’s see it.
Ive looked at teaching resources and they have some really interesting modules on the sugar trade for example. It wouldn’t be a good business model to produce teaching materials for modules that are infrequently taught.
Just to test your hypothesis though I tried to think of the whitest most middle class place I could and Kent sprung to mind. So I googled Kent grammar schools and the results told me the top grammar school in Kent is Invicta Grammer. Looking at their website it then tells me that at KS3 the Kingdom of Benin and Slavery and Empire are both studied. Perhaps you’d like to look at a few schools that you think won’t be teaching this topic and see what their websites say.

This.

This might be the point where the thread tips from discussion into trench warfare ;)

I hope it doesn't become 'trench warfare' For the most part it is an interesting exchange of knowlegde and opinions.

The PP is correct with his/her statement that your post here
'This involves investigating slavery in from its inception to its legacy of injustice that persists today.'
is loaded with judgement. You are stating that a legacy exists of current persecution/injustice based on slavery. If you can prove it beyond any reasonable doubt then fine. But has been shown numerous times within this thread. There are infinite nuances that could change that right throughout history up until today.

Opinion. Not argument… there is a difference. ”I highly doubt” is not “I know for a fact that”.

I’m quite clear in what I think needs to happen and I’m more than happy to be pleasantly surprised and give credit where it is due. Well done teachers of Invicta Grammar, may other schools follow your example.