Are we are unreasonable landlords?

[Leavingonajetplane33]

We moved out of London recently, but have kept our house and we are renting it out.

Our tenants moved in last week and so far we are finding them very difficult. On day one they called and the wife was shouting down the phone to my husband with a whole list of things that she was unhappy about.

There are too many things to mention, but she described the house as being filthy, dirty and covered in stains. Firstly the house is rented unfurnished with wooden floors throughout so not sure what could really be stained. Secondly, we had our much trusted long term cleaner spend 8 hours cleaning the property after we moved out and the check in report we have since since seen describes the property as domestically clean throughout. Nevertheless, we subsequently agreed to arrange a professional clean of the house. When the cleaning company arrived they called us to say that there was so much stuff everywhere that they could not even access some rooms and as some boxes etc were piled precariously they considered it a health and safety hazard. They cancelled the clean (with a £50 cancellation fee) which our tenants are very unhappy about.

Before moving in the tenants demanded that we install a washer dryer (we only had a washing machine) which we reluctantly agreed to. We did not have time to do this before we moved out and then needed someone to be at the property to take delivery. We had thought the tenants would be OK for this to happen shortly after they moved in. On day 1 the wife went ballistic at my husband about it and asked how she was going to be able to do washing. We pointed out that she could use the existing (perfectly fine) washing machine and put clothes out to dry in the 30 degree heat, but apparently that was unacceptable. We arranged a washer dryer to be delivered 2 days later (the quickest possible delivery slot) and then the night before (after we had had already received a 2 hour delivery slot message) they told us no one would be around to take delivery. We have again incurred a charge to rearrange the delivery.

There is a whole host of other things but I would be here writing for days to detail them all. Funniest was they told us that the boiler is inadequate because it does not have a water tank (it is a combi boiler).

We have asked to go round at some point this weekend to look at a couple of the smaller “issues” and collect a parcel addressed to us that has been accidentally delivered to the house. They are refusing because it is the anniversary of the death of the wife‘s mother.

We are trying our best to help them, but nothing ever seems to be right / good enough for them and frankly is is exhausting!

I had a few years of being a landlord, and I would say honestly just get them out as soon as you can. Or find a really good management agent (most are pretty bad though) but if they still cause problems again, ask them to leave with notice.

Also post in a landlord forum - there are some online and they are really helpful and very fair. Shows that most landlords are pretty decent.

I say this because I was one of those 'good' landlords and looking back it didn't do me or the tenants any favours. One tenant ended up treating me as if I was the council - with zero expectation on their side of maintenance in the property and they wrecked it. Whilst I was being pestered about minor issues that were actually their responsibility, some repairs were not reported to me which actually did really need sorting out sooner and it all got messy. Tenant was very obstructive about allowing access for repairs.

So in short a tenant that doesn't get what their role and responsibilities are is a nightmare!

OP it is unlikely the estate agent passed on the message to the tenants about the installation of the washer/dryer.

In the past I've had to advise colleagues who have had things like leaks - and not small ones - to contact the landlord themselves when the estate/management agent had not after 24 hours. The landlord was then furious that they hadn't been told immediately due to the risk of structural damage.

Also seen it the other way round e.g. friends and acquaintances who had tenants discovered they were getting messages about e.g. malfunctioning boilers weeks after the tenant complained to the estate/management agent. So by the time they saw the tenants, the tenants were furious.

I would suggest once you have spoken to the tenants about doing anything you confirm anything directly with them in writing - send a normal SMS.

@Leavingonajetplane33 having rented abroad and now back in uk- I can see how this happens- when we moved into our house in Denmark not only had all the blinds been removed and cleaned but all the floors had been restripped throughout the whole house and a complete redecorate. Problem was when we moved out 19 months later to go back to uk the same was expected of us which wasn't possible as we needed to move straight after house being emptied- not in a hotel for 2 weeks , re renovating their house. No wonder when we were looking round houses they were all totally mint compared to UK- consequently we lost £3500 of our deposit- even though it had no damage and had been professionally cleaned straight after we moved out , arranged by us and I checked it before our flight . . Many people coming from overseas and renting high end will expect absolutely mint, professionally cleaned show homes- I do think though that your tenants manner sucks, but then I see it as a partnership, I pay good money to both look after and live in your lovely home and you see to any reasonable problems quickly. This may settle down, my husband finds it easy to get bossy and abrupt with letting agents when we first move somewhere, usually because he's very stressed from a move !!

It's all very well everybody saying get rid, but you have to think about the kind of tenants who can afford this property. High earners in an expensive part of London...it's unlikely that any prospective tenants are going to be falling over themselves with gratitude at being allowed to live somewhere, doffing their cap to the landlord. They're all going to expect a certain standard of cleanliness and agreements to be adhered to.

I am currently a tenant and have been a landlord and mostly I think you are being unreasonable. She has just moved house and you are annoyed she does't want you visiting on the anniversary of the death of her mother? Seriously?
And its odd not to have a dryer in the UK - and also a mistake for you - how are they meant to get clothes dry in winter? drying it on radiators causes condensation problems. And not having it sorted before they move in is annoying - and expecting them to take time off work to be there for a delivery that should have been sorted before they moved in?

Having dealt with some demanding tenants myself, even through management companies its a pain. Direct it must be awful.
Please insist on switching to corresponding to only in writing. Email is best. That way you have evidence to show you have been reasonable + acted promptly. If you need to tell a white lie to force the change, say that you have a tonne of work meetings lined up + can only do email. You shouldn't have to put up with shouting, make them write it down.
Secondly, have you got any inspections in the tennancy agreement? You need to inspect that place reguarly yourself! Their behaviour + the excess stuff seen by your cleaners is a red flag that they may not treat your place well. Do it all formerly, in writing, + attend yourself or a trusted friend. If you sign up for management, don't trust them to do it alone. Our management company had supposedly inspected the family that made our rental unliveable. The photos showed they didn't visit all rooms, didn't care about water leak stains (the ceiling fell in eventually), missed the drawings on walls + that they'd flooded + ruined our kitchen. There was stuff in the way + people sleeping that stopped them seeing the damage. A warning sign that the tenants weren't treating our house well was frequent repairs; broken toilets, sinks, radiators, washing machine. It turned out that our tenants had 7 children, not just the 4 disclosed.
Keeping an eye on the state of the place is so important. I don't know if you have ever claimed for repairs out of a deposit, but it is well below what it costs you to replace because it takes off for previous years of use. For example we got £50 towards a burnt carpet that cost £250 to replace. You know they are going to be high maintenance, so try to limit the damage + get them out as soon as you are legally able.

I'm just adding my voice to those advising that you get a letting agent to manage this property.

I have one with a tenant like this and I simply can't cope with the emails at 7.30am, followed up by one at 8.30am if I haven't replied. My letting agent fields those and takes no nonsense about what is reasonable and what isn't.

It will be the best 15% you even pay!

Good luck

As others have said, I'd get the agents to take on the management as they're a neutral 3rd party and will have a dispassionate view on whether the tenants are reasonable.

I'm a landlord who uses a letting agency with a tenant who can be difficult. I'm also a tenant who recently moved into a house which not only wasn't clean but needed complete redecoration, new flooring throughout and has no appliances. We were fine with that and we understood what we were taking on.

I do not know what kind of lease you have given them, whether a year or short term rolling to 6 month but I would immediately be serving notice to leave because this is not working out for you!!! I can visualize in the future that if you dont get rid of them now then you are going to be creating a rod for your own back!! start proceedings now.

I had a tenant once like that. I told my agent to ask them to vacate the property if it was so awful. I offered to pay any fees involved. They refused and I didn’t hear a peep from them again. They turned out to be very good tenants.

The reason asked them to leave two days into the tenancy was how upset the agent was dealing with them.

You have shot yourself in the foot with the washer dryer thing. Get yourself an agent.

@Leavingonajetplane33 they're not going to pay any rent. You've a couple of cuckoos there. They're going to spoil the nest before you manage to evict them. Use a management company

Speak to agent TODAY, and tell them to make whatever moves they need to make to end this tenancy as soon as legally possible.

fo not enter into any negotiations, tell the agent to manage the property fully from this moment on and take whatever hit it means to not have to manage this rental.

in future, you rent as seen, no concessions, your own cleaner with a potential call back (ONCE) to remedy anything and that is IT.

go hard ball, don’t take this crap from these horrible people

I assume they’re on a 12 month contract? I’d give them their notice now that you expect them to move out on the dot of the 12 months being up. It might make them reflect a bit.

I deal with HNW individuals many of whom as expats and as tenants some can be VERY demanding. However, unless yours is a serviced apartment or they are paying significantly above market rent, I would be politely but clearly set out the ground rules when you meet. Including:

1. Profuse apology for the dryer not being installed - this wasn’t their fault and they’re rightly pissed off. Blame the agent not communicating or whatever helps but don’t do any thing other than apologise and move on.
2. If the inventory states the property has been domestically cleaned then this was not a sufficient clean so I don’t blame them for being narked. I’d be asking your cleaners what they did for 8 hours as every surface, should be spotless inc skirting board, mirror, window, insides of cupboard, walls and ceilings. If you’re going to be asking big money it needs to be 5* hotel standard in terms of cleaning with no sign of previous occupants.
3. take the inventory and go through it with a fine tooth comb with them and both sign & date any amendments or acceptance. Sounds like you’ll need this later.
4. make it clear what a landlord is and isn’t responsible for in a uk rental. I’ve been called out and just had to flick a trip switch, batteries going on a TV remote, asked to take the bins out you name it- if someone has come from a culture of service, they won’t be expecting to do any of these things for themselves so best address it now rather than a 2am call to change a lightbulb.
5. Ditto maid service & gardening - if this isn’t included, make that really clear and I would suggest offering to find someone (for them to pay) sharpish

on the plus side, we very rarely have problems with rent payments, trashed properties or tenants absconding, but my god they are hard work. And one was using a house as a high end brothel but that’s another matter entirely 😫

OP how come they made an offer to you?

I thought rental properties were like hens' teeth. Why did you not offer the property to them - ie why weren't you the ones doing the offering?

And I am with the "can't wave a magic wand" crew. As I said above, you can't just get a washing machine delivered when you snap your fingers. I've had to wait about 5 days both times I've ordered one (admittedly mine was from a local supplier, not the likes of Curry's but I'd imagine they'd be less flexible and take even longer). And the OP told the estate agent it would need to be delivered once they moved in.

I would tell them since they are so unhappy with the property, you are happy to break the contract if they want to move out this is also an option. You may well find they put up and shut up at that point.

The OP offered the weekend. They could have offered the day that wasn't the anniversary. Anyway how long does it take to collect a parcel - seconds.

And dryers are NOT the norm in the UK. Many people don't have them, especially washer dryers. And I don't think they are something a landlord would be expected to provide on an unfurnished let. A washing machine is different.

Drying on radiators isn't the only option if you don't have a dryer. There are washing lines. And airers. And airing cupboards.

Loads of things can't go in a dryer anyway - well, not if you don't want to ruin them.

It doesn't excuse her going "ballistic" and they sound quite demanding... but, as a landlord, I think YABU. Especially as this is a house in an expensive area of London. Your tenants are paying you thousands of pounds rent every month. The expected standard is high.

It is normal for properties to be cleaned to a professional level at the start of a tenancy. If the inventory clerk has described it as "domestically clean" that's a pretty low standard. I would expect that to mean things like smudges on glass or other surfaces, dust in radiators/blinds/on top of white goods under the worktop etc, stains or a few crumbs in cupboards, dusty skirting boards and light fittings, limescale deposits.

It is also normal (in London, at least) for tenants to negotiate things like a dishwasher or tumble dryer or even redecoration when they make an offer, especially as the cost is often small compared to the rent. They didn't "demand" it. They made an offer that included a washer dryer, you could have refused. Anything agreed as part of the offer should be dealt with before the tenancy begins. You should have installed the washer dryer before they moved in unless they agreed to a delay.

They also have the right to quiet enjoyment so you should have asked them when it would be convenient to have the washer dryer installed rather than just booking it and telling them to be there. You can't just pop round to pick up a parcel or sort out the issues whenever it suits you.

I suspect YABU.

Domestically clean isn’t clean enough for a new tenancy. I had this once before - amateur landlord was insisting her regular cleaner had been there for hours the previous week and it therefore must be spotless. I responded with photos of the toenail clippings left from the previous tenant inside a bathroom cabinet…

If you agreed to provide a washer dryer then you should have done that prior to move in. That’s your fault. Doesn’t matter whether you think the request is reasonable or not - you agreed and then didn’t do it.

OP means they made an offer for the rent, presumably in excess of what it was advertised for so they would secure the property over the other applicants.

Actually at the moment there’s huge demand for properties over £5,000 per month.

The tax changes in recent years have led to lots of landlords just getting out of renting, and so there’s a real lack of properties.

No-one’s expecting anyone to beg or doff their cap, but there’s no shortage of good tenants.

I didn't say there was a shortage of tenants. Just that the kind of people renting expensive properties aren't going to put up with crap from amateur landlords.

I wish people wouldn't say just give them notice- I am a very good tenant and you have no idea what lease these people have. Unless they break the conditions you can't just give them notice and tell them to leave . We pay several thousand a month and have had cause to have a few issues at the beginning- one of the ones I forgot on my earlier post was the unfurnished house that 'er' wasn't!! The agent had cocked up so we ended up negotiating to put half their stuff in storeage and half ours with the agent footing the storeage bill and yes we were awkward and probably unpleasant initially - should we have had people on here say 'get rid of them' no !! Also to say they won't pay the rent- you have no idea of that at all

And its odd not to have a dryer in the UK

I’ve never had a dryer in the UK nor has anyone I know!

How do you suggest the op does that? They have a signed contract

That's the issue with being a landlord, can't always get great tennant's. use a management company