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AIBU?

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Original poster

Are we are unreasonable landlords?

238 replies

Leavingonajetplane33 · 13/09/2023 09:16

We moved out of London recently, but have kept our house and we are renting it out.

Our tenants moved in last week and so far we are finding them very difficult. On day one they called and the wife was shouting down the phone to my husband with a whole list of things that she was unhappy about.

There are too many things to mention, but she described the house as being filthy, dirty and covered in stains. Firstly the house is rented unfurnished with wooden floors throughout so not sure what could really be stained. Secondly, we had our much trusted long term cleaner spend 8 hours cleaning the property after we moved out and the check in report we have since since seen describes the property as domestically clean throughout. Nevertheless, we subsequently agreed to arrange a professional clean of the house. When the cleaning company arrived they called us to say that there was so much stuff everywhere that they could not even access some rooms and as some boxes etc were piled precariously they considered it a health and safety hazard. They cancelled the clean (with a £50 cancellation fee) which our tenants are very unhappy about.

Before moving in the tenants demanded that we install a washer dryer (we only had a washing machine) which we reluctantly agreed to. We did not have time to do this before we moved out and then needed someone to be at the property to take delivery. We had thought the tenants would be OK for this to happen shortly after they moved in. On day 1 the wife went ballistic at my husband about it and asked how she was going to be able to do washing. We pointed out that she could use the existing (perfectly fine) washing machine and put clothes out to dry in the 30 degree heat, but apparently that was unacceptable. We arranged a washer dryer to be delivered 2 days later (the quickest possible delivery slot) and then the night before (after we had had already received a 2 hour delivery slot message) they told us no one would be around to take delivery. We have again incurred a charge to rearrange the delivery.

There is a whole host of other things but I would be here writing for days to detail them all. Funniest was they told us that the boiler is inadequate because it does not have a water tank (it is a combi boiler).

We have asked to go round at some point this weekend to look at a couple of the smaller “issues” and collect a parcel addressed to us that has been accidentally delivered to the house. They are refusing because it is the anniversary of the death of the wife‘s mother.

We are trying our best to help them, but nothing ever seems to be right / good enough for them and frankly is is exhausting!

OP posts:
Advicerequest · 13/09/2023 13:19

I'm a landlord. I would get rid of them asap. It will get worse.

GasPanic · 13/09/2023 13:19

FirstYouGetTheMoney · 13/09/2023 13:04

My tenants were paying top prices because they were renting a 4,000 sq ft six bedroom townhouse in the city centre. That doesn’t buy them a concierge service too, or the right to have the agreed-upon white goods upgraded if they fancy something better.

Show quote history

I never said it did buy them a concierge service.

I said that the fixtures and fittings provided should be consistent with the rental cost.

I have no idea if this is a high end, middle or low end property. I do know that most people renting in the UK these days would expect a dryer to be present in a rental property.

I can imagine if you have just uprooted, stressed and are busy installing all your stuff, the last thing you need is to be spending time hanging out washing and dealing with it in the rain if you are a family producing a lot of it. Again, no one knows the exact circumstances here, how many people there are, what the garden is like etc, but as with all of these things, when you only see it from one perspective with limited information it is hard to get an objective picture.

Flipbopboop · 13/09/2023 13:23

We rent our property unfurnished. If they want white goods or a washer etc. they have to provide it themselves. If we provide it, we're responsible and after having too many idiot tenants recklessly damaging the white goods, we're just not willing to do it any more.

NeunundneunzigHorseBallonz · 13/09/2023 13:24

Just send them a message stating that this is clearly not working out for either of you. Let them know that if they move within two weeks you will return their bond.

Oysterbabe · 13/09/2023 13:25

purpleleotard2 · 13/09/2023 13:03

Issue a section 21 immediately.

Do it while the option still exists

You can't do this in the first 4 months, or possibly much longer depending on what the tenancy agreement says.

ToBrieOrNotToBrieThatIsTheQuestion · 13/09/2023 13:26

NeunundneunzigHorseBallonz · 13/09/2023 13:24

Just send them a message stating that this is clearly not working out for either of you. Let them know that if they move within two weeks you will return their bond.

That's not how deposits work.

The OP will be legally required to return their deposit in full so long as when they leave the property (whenever that might be) they have no rent arrears, and leave the property in the same condition minus fair wear and tear.

FirstYouGetTheMoney · 13/09/2023 13:27

GasPanic · 13/09/2023 13:19

I never said it did buy them a concierge service.

I said that the fixtures and fittings provided should be consistent with the rental cost.

I have no idea if this is a high end, middle or low end property. I do know that most people renting in the UK these days would expect a dryer to be present in a rental property.

I can imagine if you have just uprooted, stressed and are busy installing all your stuff, the last thing you need is to be spending time hanging out washing and dealing with it in the rain if you are a family producing a lot of it. Again, no one knows the exact circumstances here, how many people there are, what the garden is like etc, but as with all of these things, when you only see it from one perspective with limited information it is hard to get an objective picture.

Show quote history

The cost (£3,000 per month) was for the size and location. If they wanted a house in the same place with top-end appliances then that would cost them more.

TodayInahurry · 13/09/2023 13:29

You should be doing this through a letting agency, they do everything from finding suitable tenants, arranging cleaning etc. you have been too nice

Original poster
Leavingonajetplane33 · 13/09/2023 13:33

Thanks for all your messages - wasn't expecting so many replies!

To clarify a few things, we used an estate agent to market the property and find tenants. They did all the referencing and will collect the rent during the tenancy. We have made sure that we have all the right certificates etc. in place, have a proper signed tenancy agreement and the deposit is being held in a deposit protection scheme. A full check in report / inventory was done just before the tenants moved in.

We did not opt for a full management service as we thought we would be able to manage the property ourselves and did not want to eat into the profit. It was our family home and we have done extensive renovations to it, so everything is in good order and pretty new appliances, so we did not expect there would be many issues. I actually previously rented out a flat for 7 years, so do have quite a bit of experience as a landlord. I never used a management company and, perhaps I was just very lucky, but I always had good relationships with my tenants.

When the tenants made an offer to rent, they said that it was on the condition that we provide a washer dryer. We were reluctant to have to replace a perfectly good washing machine, but agreed to it as the offer they made was otherwise a good one. We did advise the estate agent that we would be unlikely to be able to get the machine installed ahead of the move in date, but would sort it ASAP. Perhaps that message never got passed onto the tenants. We ordered the new machine and told the tenants when we were planning to get it delivered and they did not advise us until 2 days later that they would not be around to take delivery by which point it was too late to rearrange delivery.

We thought the level of cleanliness when they moved in was fine, and have pictures from the check in report, but after being shouted at by the tenants agreed to a further clean in order to placate them. They are the ones who told us when they wanted this second clean to be done. Of course we understood that there were likely still to be boxes etc around and that there would be furniture in the property, but we honestly thought that since they had demanded the clean they would ensure the property was in a state that allowed that to happen. The cleaning company send us videos and it was impossible to even open doors to some rooms.

Of course we don't expect the tenants to drop everything so that we can go around and collect our parcel, but the main point was actually to go and have a look at some of the things they have raised as issues. We would just collect the parcel at the same time. We have now just told them to leave the parcel with neighbours and we will come and collect it from the neighbours instead.

Our house is in a pretty expensive area of London and the tenants (well, the husband - the wife is a stay at home mum) are higher earners so we are not really worried about them not paying rent. We are honestly trying our best to deal with issues they have raised in a reasonable and prompt manner, but we feel that the way they have interacted with us is totally unreasonable and, at time, very unpleasant.

They have recently returned to the UK after being expats for quite a long time and we wonder whether that is why they have (in our view) such unreasonable expectations. We honestly feel like we are being treated as servants at their beck and call.

OP posts:
Bird1970 · 13/09/2023 13:40

Sounds like you are going beyond what most would do. I assume they saw the property and agreed to everything before they moved in. I would explain they signed the lease as was and therefore any changes i.e. washer/dryer would have to be at their expense. If there is a cooling off period within the contracts I would encourage you to ask them to leave.

StillWantingADog · 13/09/2023 13:40

I’d get rid as soon as you can

i think you were unreasonable to give in to their demands for a washer drier and extra clean.

MaybeSmaller · 13/09/2023 13:40

Without seeking to cast blame, this could be a tenant who is used to a completely different style of renting (possibly overseas).

Or it could be someone from somewhere where rent is a lot cheaper than London, who is disappointed with what they can get for their money, and expects OP to "make up the difference", as it were, with a higher standard of fittings and appliances.

This is exacerbated by the fact that OP is an inexperienced landlord not really sure of their obligations. As PPs have pointed out OP could have avoided these problems by engaging the services of an agency or management company.

I'll pick on one point which is the washing machine:

Before moving in the tenants demanded that we install a washer dryer (we only had a washing machine) which we reluctantly agreed to.

Either it was negotiated as part of the contract (which would create an obligation on the landlord to provide the item) or it was requested and agreed to afterwards, which would have been entirely at OP's discretion.

This distinction is pretty important. In the first case, the tenants are justifiably upset that they don't have what they are contractually entitled to. In the second case, they are being ungrateful over something that is basically provided as a courtesy.

Regarding deliveries or inspections, you need to negotiate this with the tenant and not just assume they will be available at a given time on a given day.

As for the boiler, it sounds to me like they are just not used to a combi boiler and the way it provides hot water. How you manage expectations like that is an absolutely key part of the landlord "experience".

Being a landlord isn't just money for old rope. You are providing a service to a paying customer, with all the difficulties that go along with that.

Testina · 13/09/2023 13:40

How did you arrange the washer dryer on a 2 day service, yet the tenants told you 2 days later that they wouldn’t be in?
Did you actually agree with the delivery slot with them?
I’m sorry, but on this point I think you need to accept that you messed it up. How did you not have time to arrange it? It would have taken you more time to tell the agent that you might not manage it, than it would to actually go online and book a delivery. Which was available in 2 days - so plenty of time.
You have decided to save money by not using an agent for management - so you can’t expect them to have told the tenant you’re not going to bothering completing the washer dryer agreement in time.

NigellaAwesome · 13/09/2023 13:43

I would echo what everyone else has said - you need a professional managing agent, especially if you are not living nearby. Being a landlord is no longer something that novices should be doing. The sector is highly regulated and if you don't know what you are doing you could easily get landed with tenants you can't get rid of, unpaid rent, or fines.

Have you got a break clause in the contract?

At a minimum, I would be double-checking you have got all your paperwork in order, such as:

  1. Have they signed the inventory?
  2. Why did you not do an in person check-in? I would be round as soon as possible to photograph / document any issues they claim to have.
  3. Have you protected the deposit in a scheme? Have you provided the statutory information such as details of the scheme, provided the scheme leaflet, provided details of the circumstances in which the deposit may be withheld? (I am in NI, so the requirements may be slightly different, but you need to check).
  4. Have you provided a copy of the gas certificate & EPC?
  5. Have you checked that the property is compliant with fire regs? Are there smoke alarms & CO detectors?
empee47 · 13/09/2023 13:44

Leavingonajetplane33 · 13/09/2023 13:33

Thanks for all your messages - wasn't expecting so many replies!

To clarify a few things, we used an estate agent to market the property and find tenants. They did all the referencing and will collect the rent during the tenancy. We have made sure that we have all the right certificates etc. in place, have a proper signed tenancy agreement and the deposit is being held in a deposit protection scheme. A full check in report / inventory was done just before the tenants moved in.

We did not opt for a full management service as we thought we would be able to manage the property ourselves and did not want to eat into the profit. It was our family home and we have done extensive renovations to it, so everything is in good order and pretty new appliances, so we did not expect there would be many issues. I actually previously rented out a flat for 7 years, so do have quite a bit of experience as a landlord. I never used a management company and, perhaps I was just very lucky, but I always had good relationships with my tenants.

When the tenants made an offer to rent, they said that it was on the condition that we provide a washer dryer. We were reluctant to have to replace a perfectly good washing machine, but agreed to it as the offer they made was otherwise a good one. We did advise the estate agent that we would be unlikely to be able to get the machine installed ahead of the move in date, but would sort it ASAP. Perhaps that message never got passed onto the tenants. We ordered the new machine and told the tenants when we were planning to get it delivered and they did not advise us until 2 days later that they would not be around to take delivery by which point it was too late to rearrange delivery.

We thought the level of cleanliness when they moved in was fine, and have pictures from the check in report, but after being shouted at by the tenants agreed to a further clean in order to placate them. They are the ones who told us when they wanted this second clean to be done. Of course we understood that there were likely still to be boxes etc around and that there would be furniture in the property, but we honestly thought that since they had demanded the clean they would ensure the property was in a state that allowed that to happen. The cleaning company send us videos and it was impossible to even open doors to some rooms.

Of course we don't expect the tenants to drop everything so that we can go around and collect our parcel, but the main point was actually to go and have a look at some of the things they have raised as issues. We would just collect the parcel at the same time. We have now just told them to leave the parcel with neighbours and we will come and collect it from the neighbours instead.

Our house is in a pretty expensive area of London and the tenants (well, the husband - the wife is a stay at home mum) are higher earners so we are not really worried about them not paying rent. We are honestly trying our best to deal with issues they have raised in a reasonable and prompt manner, but we feel that the way they have interacted with us is totally unreasonable and, at time, very unpleasant.

They have recently returned to the UK after being expats for quite a long time and we wonder whether that is why they have (in our view) such unreasonable expectations. We honestly feel like we are being treated as servants at their beck and call.

You and your DH sound one hundred percent reasonable. Wonder if the tenants are struggling with not living abroad anymore and having an army of hired help. Perhaps they are too used to falling back on a landlord doing everything-if they were owners rather than renters, they’d soon see sense!

Testina · 13/09/2023 13:45

sthisbest · 13/09/2023 13:08

LOL she doesn't have a magic wand. Delivery is rarely instantaneous for large electrical goods.

Show quote history

LOL back at ya!
OP has since confirmed that she agreed the washer dryer as part of the contract and it could be installed in 48 hours.
I’m not saying these tenants have done nothing wrong, but on the washer dryer - the OP is at fault.

Royanne · 13/09/2023 13:46

So they're high earners in an expensive part of London, who made a "good offer" - presumably they're paying an arm and a leg for the property, and it was on the condition that you provided a washer dryer. Which you haven't.

This is a business transaction and you haven't fulfilled what you agreed to. It's completely understandable that they are pissed off.

shieldmaiden7 · 13/09/2023 13:51

This is mad behaviours. I rented for 15 years before buying last year and was over the moon to have somewhere to live and was as accommodating to the landlord and estate agent as possible.
Are they renting directly through you or through a agent?

ToBrieOrNotToBrieThatIsTheQuestion · 13/09/2023 13:51

They have recently returned to the UK after being expats for quite a long time and we wonder whether that is why they have (in our view) such unreasonable expectations. We honestly feel like we are being treated as servants at their beck and call.

I think this is key - they're simply not used to renting as it is normally done in the UK. I wonder if they ever rented in the UK before they emigrated? Were they living in a country where having hired help is the norm (e.g. middle east?)

We did advise the estate agent that we would be unlikely to be able to get the machine installed ahead of the move in date, but would sort it ASAP. Perhaps that message never got passed onto the tenants.

The estate agents probably didn't pass the message on - which probably means that from the tenants POV you promised one thing and just... didn't do it.

I'd let things settle until you're much closer to the end of the fixed term of the tenancy agreement before you decide what to do. It's not like you can do anything in the first 4 months of the tenancy agreement anyway.

In future I would consider doing it through OpenRent, and doing the viewings yourself so that you get a sense of people before they sign. They can handle all the things your estate agent currently handles like referencing, inventories and contracts https://www.openrent.co.uk/our-pricing

Advicerequest · 13/09/2023 13:54

in future:
let through estate agent but always check the tenants yourself. Twice top end EA have tried to slip through inappropriate tenants in the hope of a quick agreement (one couple were bankrupt....!)
get an inventory and get everything in writing eg I have in my lease that tenants are responsible for clearing drain on flat roof of leaves. If they don't the flat roof might flood.
i always give 48 hours notice if I have to visit. I never drop in unannounced. I always give them the choice of me or them being at house for essential repairs, gas ch ex is

  • I make sure that everyone knows the house is rented as is and if they want to make changes they have to get permission from
  • me and then revert back before end of tenancy
  • never do anything on faith
  • if my tenants wanted a new washer dryer and I had a good serviceable washer dryer they'd have to pay for it
if you live far away get a managing agent. Otherwise do it yourself. I haven't heard from my tenants in three minutes ths. Good tenants alert you to issues.
  • Break clause!
  • professionals without kids or pets are a good bet!
MaybeSmaller · 13/09/2023 13:56

Sorry OP, I've just seen your update:

When the tenants made an offer to rent, they said that it was on the condition that we provide a washer dryer.

This does change things significantly. It was not a "demand". It was negotiated and agreed to. So you are contractually obligated to provide the washer dryer.

If I was the tenant in this scenario and had specifically negotiated an appliance, I would be pissed off if I moved in (having paid the chunky deposit) and found the appliance wasn't there.

You did attempt to rectify things, but sadly a cock-up like this is likely to set the tone for the landlord-tenant relationship going forward.

If they are high earners they are likely to have very high expectations - after all, they are surely paying absolute top dollar if it is an expensive part of London.

For example, the combi boiler that they're unhappy with is probably worth less money than a single month's rent.

Nat6999 · 13/09/2023 13:59

I would tell them since they are so unhappy with the property, you are happy to break the contract if they want to move out.

ConsuelaHammock · 13/09/2023 14:01

They’re in now so there’s not much you can do. How long is their tenancy agreement? Try not to think of the house as your home but as an asset that’s making you money. They are paying you rent and you are providing a service. If they don’t turn out to be good tenants be ready to ask them to leave when the minimum term has been reached. They’re already a nightmare . A letting agent won’t have any more luck with them that you will so I would keep managing it myself .

HauntedPencil · 13/09/2023 14:04

You need to just start saying no!

ConsuelaHammock · 13/09/2023 14:05

Next time google prospective tenants! Look them up on Facebook / instagram/ twitter. It’s amazing what you can learn about someone’s character from their social media accounts.
Tenants are crying out for properties so you can hand pick your future tenants.