Do you agree with school or the parents?

[Watermelon44]

Our high school has made the news because of a uniform dispute between (some) parents and the head who is recently in post.

The gist of it is that the school brought in a new rule in April that they were no longer allowing black leather trainers (eg superstars or nike air force) and instead the kids should be in smart plain black leather office shoes.

This appears to have caused ww3 with some parents, who despite having many months notice, still sent their kids in the banned trainers (100+ children apparently). The school has stuck to its guns and has isolated and then suspended those in the wrong shoes if they refused to comply.

The school has also banned girls from wearing socks, and have enforced a thick tights ruling, although socks are allowed in the summer term and if allowed by the head in any warm spells (eg the past 3 days).

Personally I think the tights ruling is worse and I have mixed views on the trainers rule.

I am interested in the real reasons behind these strict uniform rules as I feel if the real reasons were shared with parents they may be more on board with them, rather than the usual rubbish about dressing professionally eg like in an office, when my dp works in a head office in London and goes in jeans and trainers!

As this seems to have whipped up a storm locally, I am interested in other people’s views on this topic as some of the parents round here seem to have gone totally bats*it over it!!

Clarks are more expensive than Nike too.

We're in a city and the choice is still incredibly limited. They tell you to write down 5 choices but there is little point unless your child passed the 11+ and you are going for one of the grammars. If you are religious you can choose the Catholic school and aside from that you only have a chance of getting your catchment school.

A lot of pp have said that we should get rid of uniform, not least because most workplaces are now smart-casual. I am a teacher and would agree with this if we could trust the kids to turn up in sensible smart-casual, and trust the parents to support a smart-casual dress code. But the absolute shitshow that is every non-uniform day leads me to believe that we can't. So to me uniform is the 'least worst' option.

Thanks @YourNameGoesHere I wondered how it was done! I don't post often.
And yes @0021andabit they are. And Nike more hard wearing.

I agree with you that the tights thing wouldn’t have blown up if they’d looked at the forecast and allowed socks on day 1. It does make you question the decision making process and reasoning though, as if socks are ok on one day, why not another?

I also saw the holocaust comment, wtf inspired someone to write that? People are really heated up about it though. It’s not for financial reasons with the people I know as they’re all loaded, I think it’s because they don’t like being told what to do (the parents) and the kids are used to doing what they like and being told yes. Parents are taking legal action!

I saw the shoe list and was pretty confused I admit. Some are very similar to those on the banned list. Strange times! It must come down to branding I assume? But to be honest ours started year 7 in Clarks and they broke quite quickly with all of the walking they needed to do, whereas the superstars lasted 1-2 years and were cheaper so we always bought them in the next few years!

I agree in the most part. Bit of a tangent, but I think I'm tired of all these 'stop slut shaming crys though'. If a teenager dresses in a sexual manner, they are wanting to be viewed as sexual beings, which they are. If teachers find them distracting, it's not comfortable, but I can see why. I suppose we can frame it in a more suitable way, but this is a factor too, whether we are comfortable referring to it or not.

@picturethispatsy

I think you may be right re the gradual loss of control of parents and children, many of my friends are teachers and some of the stories they tell ar e pretty eye watering.

I think uniform is good in this respect but surely it would be better to take a practical approach with comfort at the forefront and that would gain more respect from the parents and kids?

I think the key thing is that looking smarter (wearing uniform) assists with maintaining disciplined behaviour in schools. My immediate family has 3 children in the same year at 3 different local schools. There’s a clear demarcation of levels of discipline expected depending on the mixture of the intake: grammar, rural comp and city comp. My husband is a governor of the middle one of these. The head made a clear connection between behaviour problems and PE kit wearing during Covid (when you could wear PE kit all day if you had a PE lesson, so as to avoid going into a changing room). The head was desperate to return to proper uniform, and abandoned the PE kit all day policy as soon as possible. The grammar school maintains the PE kit all day rule to this day. The city comp probably never permitted it.

@Watermelon44 I think they liked the old regime. Nothing changed for so long. I also think if the head had been male it wouldn't have been as bad. Some of the comments about the new head 😵‍💫

It needed to change as behaviour of some kids (like a lot of schools) was shocking and they ruin it for the majority of lovely kids.

Has the ofsted report been published yet?

Thats interesting as a local school to us let's kids wear pe kit on any day they want too, they have a formal uniform and pe uniform and both are acceptable whether it is a pe day for the kids or not. There has been an increase in attendance since this policy was brought in. Kids like to be comfortable. They like to be able to run around at break and lunch and be comfortable to learn.

At my DCs school, they have gone further than this and said all shoes must have a “stepped heel” and be polished. So, your average Clark’s school shoes with rubber sole are out, school are insisting on formal leather shoes.

The school sent over 35 year 7 children, on the first day of secondary education, to sit in a “reset” hall all day, because their black school shoes failed the stepped heel test. Mostly boys, as they were in the “trainer style” school shoes, not even branded trainers.

It’s madness.

They have taken a zero tolerance approach to all sorts of uniform infringements this year, and seem proud that they have set aside whole halls to cope with detentions.

But they have gone up against the parents, are handing out detentions everywhere to children who haven’t ever had any behaviour problems, can’t keep up with all the children who have failed to attend said detentions, and many of their own teaching staff don’t want any part of this but have to enforce it.

The schools leaders are at risk of losing face, so are digging their heels in more.. and in amongst the chaos, learning time is being affected.

It’s not really on when the skirts issue is only framed as inconvenient for male teachers and given as the main reason for them being unsuitable. Just my opinion, of course, but I’m not comfortable with girls being told to make way to make men more comfortable.
This may stem from back in the day our female PE teacher telling us to always exercise as a good habit ‘to keep your husband keen’ I admit!

This is crazy. It seems like a massive power trip and it's just going to stress parent and kids out.

I absolutely DESPAIR for our kids. Who the fuck are these controlling weedy cunts making up these rules?

I'd ban school uniform if I could. It's like a breath of fresh air in Europe seeing kids relaxed and happy in their clothes of choice.

@Watermelon44
Comfort?! Don’t mention children’s rights to be comfortable 😜 We must truss them up in mini suits with ties and put them in sensible shoes and not allow any individuality at all.

It’s obvious to me that uniform ‘discretions’ such as girls wearing short skirts and kids wanting small bits of logos on their shoes etc are just little rebellions against the tight controls over their lives.

The irony is that if we let kids wear their own comfortable clothes to school I’d put money on it that in time, they’d come in more appropriate attire as they wouldn’t feel the need to rebel against the tight controls over them. They’d have autonomy over their bodies and own clothing and would respect school and its rules more.

100% this. Could I please add ‘anally retentive’ to your excellent description of the adults making up these draconian rules??

But a basic uniform like you see in many primaries would surely be much more practical than than the disgusting secondary school blazers, ties and kilts etc. A school sweatshirt fine and then everything else should be able to be bought from a supermarket. Polo shirts, trousers or shorts / skirts and trainers. Kids have a uniform but will be a darn sight more comfortable and cost a lot less!

@picturethispatsy absolutely!

I dread my children going to secondary school.

I am primary school based but have been doing some work in secondary in the last year.
it’s all new to me but I did get a shock at the length of skirts as when I was sat in Reception I was able to see a child standing at the desk and her butt cheeks!
I really feel for secondary teachers as there’s blaming women for what their wearing but there are also rules that should be followed as it’s inappropriate for anyone to be able to see those areas of anyone in an educational setting.

if I was a secondary head teacher I’d ban skirts over socks or trainers and have everyone in shorts or trousers!

😞 I can imagine. I home educate mine now as I couldn’t even…

My personal opinion is that the current education system is unfit for today’s world and today’s young people. It’s out of touch and out of step. A model based on that from the Industrial Revolution era in a digital world. This is what all these issues stem from fundamentally.

@SpanieAttack

Yours sounds as bad as ours!

I must admit I am interested in how this will eventually pan out, will the head get her own way and will parents end up buying the proper shoes or will school backtrack? (But then end up alienating the majority who have got the right uniform even if they hate it.). Or will kids end up permanently suspended!

IAt primary we had a head ban sandals on safety grounds, fair enough, but some parents objected to the staff continuing to wear theirs. Ditto ‘unnatural’ hair colours.
I’m generally supportive of uniform until they go off the scale with the finer detail and your kids terrified of being accused of a minor transgression.

I don't teach anymore, but when I did, there was a thing about 'sweat the small stuff'. It's not because kids can't learn in purple socks but they can in black socks, it's because it shows details are important and gives those who want to rebel something to rebel against that won't actually hurt them. That was the logic the proponents gave at the time as I remember it anyway.

The no trainers will be in an effort to stop kids demanding Airforce1s at crazy prices or feeling inadequate in cheaper trainers.
I'm not sure that secondary aged kids want to be seen running around playing at break or lunch.

The tights will be an effort to deal with insanely short skirts. Although I think they'd be better to suggest leggings or trousers.
My DSs high-school has a website photo "this is the uniform" one of girls has a skirt shorter than the blazer. I swear it looks like she has nothing under the blazer. Can't leave much to the imagination when she sits down

@Blueeyes13 no but most women have bare legs or tights. So if it’s office wear I would expect the option to be bare legs or tights. Enforcing girls into tights is not legally enforceable I would suspect.