AIBU to wonder at people experiencing natural consequences.

[RexWillKillYou]

do other people find it difficult to sympathize with people complaining when they experience Natural Consequences Stuff like:
you drank too much - hangover
you cheated on your spouse- your kids think you’re shit.
you live beyond your means- and you’re skint.
you refuse to go to engage with the diabetes clinic- and look what’s happened.

bad stuff happens to people (all of us) at some point without us doing anything. But we don’t have to give it a hand, and shut our eyes to a mess of our own making.

I think the 'don't judge' pendulum has swung too far and people can now behave as badly as they like because someone will always find an excuse for it. A bit of social scorn helped curb people's worst behaviours. This is one of the reasons society is going to hell in a handbasket.

YABU.

People are complex and don't exist in a vacuum of good v bad. Decisions and situations can come about for a myriad of reasons.

Even in the event someone is suffering the consequences of a bad decision made entirely selfishly, so what? They are still suffering. Maybe they'll learn something from it, maybe not. They are still suffering and I hope I'd still manage to be sympathetic.

Good people make mistakes / do shitty things all the time. And yes, I do feel empathy for them.

I use natural consequences often as a parenting tool. Doesn’t mean I can’t empathise with my child either.

Yes - I get the empathy thing, but I would argue that you don't do people favours by always making excuses for them.

You can be kind and want the best for people, but absolving them of any blame for the situation they're in (sometimes - you don't need to tell me this doesn't always apply!) won't help them to grow as individuals. It's often infantilising. It's as if we're saying to them 'You have no agency - you're completely at the mercy of others'. Helping people to realise that sometimes they do have a choice and the power to act on it is important and shows respect for them.

Why don’t you ask her?

Maybe she was stuck in a job that made her feel dead, with all sorts of other complications and responsibilities that haven’t occurred to you might have been the case in the intervening decades, never mind to begin feeling compassion for her.

Maybe it was personal, and she found you a particularly odious child, I certainly have no idea.

I love all the pearl clutchers posters judging the Op's judgyness.

Classic MN to think you're above such things while doing it yourself.

I can understand that, but I don’t like people in self-built suffering managing to inflict that on others in a myriad of ways.
Especially when the others are my friends.

It’s surely a fine line though isn’t it?

Someone complaining they have a hangover after a night out might have reasons for drinking, but equally they must surely realise that if they drink then they will have a hangover. It’s a consequence of that choice, and yet they continue to make that choice.

Also, it’s easy to sympathise with someone who e.g. drinks or smokes because of the life they have, but what if the consequences of those behaviours impact on other people.

If a man turns violent and beats up his partner when he’s been drinking should we just turn around and say that life isn’t black and white and we need to look to understand why he does these things? And what then of the women and children who are victims as a consequence of his situation?

What about a criminal who commits a heinous crime? Most criminals have a background of abuse/addiction in their own lives. And i think it’s safe to say that no person who commits such awful crimes as murder is mentally normal. But while we can question what is going on for them in order to have made them commit those crimes, nobody would feel they deserved sympathy when those behaviours landed them in jail.

I’m sure even the likes of Wayne Cousins has something mentally wrong up there, but he’s an abhorrent individual, and possibly because he’s mentally unbalanced. In that case I think it’s ok to really not care about his history, because his actions have removed his right to sympathy on that score.

I definitely find it hard to be sympathetic. For example a friend last year her husband just left her cos she basically makes promises broke them and has a drinking issue more like binge drinking so not all the time but wheb she does its over the limit. even cheated on him (he doesn't know about the cheating)

I just couldn't be the person to listen to her crying and saying she wanted him back. Cos quite frankly u can hardly be fucking surprised he left u.

Maybe I'm just too much a practical person or a realist that I cant understand why u would be that upset over your bad decisions and just accept u made them and move on to focus on what's next.

Maybe it stems from how I deal with things, im overweight I dont see the point in crying over it wishing I didnt eat all that food. Cos I did it and if I dont like it then I better do something to change it. 🤷‍♀️

I do get its all emotional etc. And I guess some people take longer to move on from things than others

Or maybe im just a cold hearted person lol

To answer your question - quite frankly yes but is anyone asking you to sympathise with these people? How empathetic you want to be is entirely up to you. Most of us have to draw the line somewhere or we'd get compassion fatigue.

Obviously there's a wider conversation to be had around accountability etc... I'd just be wary of building up your own ego around the fact that 'I'm strong, I take accountability and others don't' type narrative. It all comes from perspective, unfortunately everyone's is different, so basically you aren't right or wrong. Although the way trauma impacts the brain can affect the way people deal with situations so there is that

It's the ripple effect.

If you're having a bad time that's self inflicted, blaming other people or demanding support just extends the number of people being negatively impacted.

Keep your ripples to yourself!

@begaydocrime42 you wrote quite frankly yes but is anyone asking you to sympathise with these people?

Well in my case yes, having the friend call me up crying countless times going over n over how much she wants him back. Not acknowledging her part in it, not willing to change etc. Its draining to hear it to be honest.

Quite frankly if she is willing to cheat on her husband clearly her marriage isn't working yet she wants him back. Its bizarre to be honest I can't reconcile with why a person wants to do that.

A bit of social scorn helped curb people's worst behaviours.

I don’t think it did - they were just ignored more.

Oh come on, we have all moaned about a hangover at some point in our lives, unless I am on this thread with Saints

EmmaPaella · Today 16:30

A bit of social scorn helped curb people's worst behaviours.

I don’t think it did - they were just ignored more.

You've made me think about something...sorry if it's a bit off the main topic!

I remember when it became acceptable in the media, esp the trendy media, to get drunk in public, take drugs etc - possibly in the late 70s.early 80s?? I mean in TV ads, films, TV shows, etc I was always a sensible youngster and I didn't do these things, but I remember feeling really resentful at being portrayed as boring, uptight, frigid, etc etc (all acceptable insults at the time). I'm not explaining this very well - but it was a shift in social mores. People might have always done these things, but they'd been judged for them (or there'd been a cover-up if they were celebrities) and at some point it changed to 'anything goes', or worse - if you're not doing these things, there's something wrong with you.

I still think it's a mistake to have normalised these behaviours and make them seem part of a fun lifestyle. Young people hate to be seen as boring and I know lots of people who experimented with drugs and booze precisely because of perceived media pressure not to be boring. I think the tide has turned now we know how much damage it does - but we're left with lots of victims of that era.

So, to link a bit to the point of the thread - I think when we stopped being judgemental as a society we actually did some harm to those who bought into the 'party till your septum collapses' lifestyle.

I share a similar view with regard to pornography. It used be viewed as a bit yucky, then accepted then expected. I really feel for young girls today going out into a porn soaked society and relationships

I do raise an eyebrow at the number of people who are so cavalier about their decisions that they don't build in exit plans to mitigate against bad luck.

This is the kind of thing I thought when I was 16 years old.
Unless you are very young, then I think you are not very bright.

And social scorn still exists in abundance. Just not for drugs and drinking.

What we’ve heard many a time over ten years or so (including MN) is: “Heck, you greedy Boomers have ruined it all for us. We’ll never be able to afford somewhere to live.”

Their room (in M&D’s house) is full of gaming consoles, gadgetry, TVs, phones, computers, etc that they’re paying £££s for per month.

We didn’t plan all this guys! It’s need versus want surely?

Sure you did- teenagers are well known for having endless compassion for lost causes until they realize that there’s a chunk of people that will happily make a mess and manipulate someone else to clean up, using their being distressed.

If you still have a full well of sympathy and compassion, I would suggest you haven’t had to pick up the pieces very much of a person that makes poor decisions, with little intention of taking any responsibility for them, and follows it up with (to quote Agnes Bain) “The Poor Me’s”. The fact you feel entitled to belittle the people who have picked up the pieces shows nothing nice about you character.

Are you honestly suggesting people should give emotionally, financially, time-wise, on every front until they are at the point of collapse to fill a void in someone else’s soul. Are you prepared to allocate all your resources in an attempt to make mitigate a self made catastrophe.

I do know that young people following the same career path as me cannot afford a house when I could. I don’t think that’s their fault at all, and hopefully it will correct itself.

I have a lot of empathy with people desperate to make it work. The tech addicts need to realise what matters in life. For example, iPhone 14 Vs Cubot Max?

Kind of, yes and no

The hangover one, yes, if it’s an ordinary case of someone has a few too many, feels shit the next day, etc. Obviously different if they’ve suffered some real trauma leading to the drinking etc. (But I guess I’d be feeling sorry about the trauma not the hangover really)

The affair- yes, but then you don’t always know whether what the kids understand to be the case is accurate

Some of the others - you never quite know people’s circumstances so it’s best not to judge too quickly. Things like the money - I find it hard to judge people on that because you never really know - it’s not like everyone has the amount of money they deserve, and no luck or other circumstances involved.

@RRexWillKillYou I was saying at 16 I had no sympathy. Now I understand how difficult life can be. Expecting people to live their life perfectly whatever life throws at them is unrealistic.