To be worrying so much about DD 9 and in year 5 having a reading age of year 1

[Helena2000]

Hello everyone,
I'm feeling lost and am looking for some advice.
My Dd is 9, starts year 5 this week, and cannot read beyond early/start of year 1 level.
She spells every word phonetically, she cannot spell any word correctly, even CVC words.
She has no diagnosis of anything but school have placed her on their SEN register.
What this means in reality is that she gets taken out of class every day in to a group of 3 children and a TA to do different work to the rest of the class. The other 2 children have severe behavioural needs, which the TA struggles to manage whilst my DD sits there not receiving any attention or input because she is well behaved and compliant. She has told me she gets given colouring in to do whilst the TA tries to manage the behaviour of the other 2 children who argue, fight and disrupt the group she gets taken in to. I have fought and fought against this but school tell me its that or she sits in the main class.
DD tells me that when she does sit in the main class, she literally does not understand a single thing the teacher is teaching, but looks around to see the rest of the class can understand and get on with their set work, whilst she thinks to herself 'why can you all understand but I can't?'.
School did a dyslexia screen which they've told me shows that she is not dyslexic.
I'm at a loss as to why she has such a significant learning delay in reading, spelling and also maths.
She is incredibly intelligent. She's bright, alert, astute, is fully engaged with the world around her, has a brilliant sense of humour, is extremely empathetic, kind, gentle, so very thoughtful, notices so much of what's going on around her and is very in tune with other people's feelings and emotions. She adores art, dance, stories - her favourite thing in the world is to be read to (I read books and stories to her daily), animals, nature, playing, swimming, crafting. She's highly imaginative, loves playing with her sibling and her friends, she has friends who love her, her older sibling literally adores her, she is the chattiest little girl ever - she chats away to me non stop and her use of vocabulary is impressive and very varied, and her comprehension of what new words mean is really impressive. She's affectionate, loving, and just a little angel.
I'm describing her character to you because I'm trying to convey how bright she is as a person.
But tonight at bedtime she spent 2 hours crying her eyes out, her little face looked like she was in so much pain. She cried and cried about not being able to read. She told me her greatest wish is to be able to read, and said "I feel so stupid", "I feel so ashamed", "I'm so embarrassed about myself" all through terrible tears. She was clinging on to me, wrapped her whole body around mine, asking me to please help her. She said every day she misses her class lessons because she is taken out of class in to this little group of 3, that she gets no benefit from. She said co.ments from peers who ask her why she can't read are making her feel stupid and worthless.
I have spoken to the SENCO at school about her not benefiting from being in tbe 'focused learning ' group at school, and I was told very starkly there are no resources to give her any other input, i.e. not enough staff to offer any alternative, due to budget cuts.
I don't know how to help or what to do.
I've noticed that I can teach her a word, go over it in repetition, she'll appear to get it, and then within 20 seconds it's gone again and she can't recognise or remember the word.
Some words that I ask her to sound out, she guesses the word based on the 1st letter, or she says words that don't even contain the letters that are in the word I'm trying to teach her to read.
She is a gifted artist for her age, and often draws what she's seen that day, and she'll draw the most incredible detail in something that I can't believe she even noticed. So if she notices and remembers this much detail, how can she not notice the detail in a short word, or remember it through repetition?
School are adament it's not dyslexia because the school screening test came back as normal. I've had this conversation with them several times over.
Another thing is she cannot pronounce her words properly. Examples are that the W in 'Weather' is pronounced with her front teeth on her bottom lip. For Never she says 'Nether'. These are just 2 examples, but she mispronounces words hundreds of times a day. No amount of non-stop, endless correcting of her pronunciation by me ever, ever teaches her to remember how to say the word properly. In fact it's counter productive as it upsets her when I correct her, even though I do it in a softly spoken, swing and encouraging way. She just gets really frustrated.
I requested a SALT assessment 2 years ago via school and theyve told me she doesn't fit the referral criteria because she can talk fluently. Ive pushed this in meetings and been told the same again.
She has very poor short term memory, but excellent long term memory.
She struggles to follow instructions that have more than 2 steps involved, or with any instruction that's too complex.
She regularly says "What?" "Pardon?" "Can you say that again please?" But it's not to do with her hearing ad she can hear a pin drop in the distance! She's had her hearing tested and it's good. It's more as though she is asking the person to repeat themselves so that she can give herself more time to process what they've said before she responds.
she has had hearing tests and eye tests - hearing is very good. Needs glasses for reading but her prescription is borderline ok, not severe, optician said not crucial that she wears her glasses as she can manage fine without.
She needs a lot of time. Extra time to do things. Rushing her if we're late sends her in to a complete meltdown and she says she can't cope with hurrying up or rushing.
School teachers and SENCO don't even seem worried. Every school year is the same; unworried teachers. Every ADPR meeting is met with a teacher gushing with enthusiasm, telling me she's a pleasure to teach and that she's wonderful at drawing and popular with peers. I get inwardly really cross. I'm not there to hear about her drawing. And the teacher doesn't teach her. A TA does. Although she doesn't teach her either due to the disruption of tbe other 2. And I happen to know the TA outside of school and she is new to the role and has no experience in education whatsoever, comes from a totally unrelated background of work.
I've been told by my local authority she doesn't qualify for an Ed psych referral.
When I relay my concerns to her teacher, she smiles brightly and says "Don't worry! She doesn't need a diagnosis! It makes no difference at all to the way we teach her!" all delivered with a megawatt smile and an abrupt end of responding to my concerns.
Maybe they're fed up with me saying the same concerns every time we meet, I don't know.
She has started constantly apoligising for things she does not need to be apilogising for, and i think this is a sign that her self esteem is being affected, which I cant bear.
I have spent every day of her life telling her and showing her how much I love her. I continuously give her positive feedback, praise, encouragement, I listen to her, I try as hard as i can to give her a happy life filled with different experiences, but its not enough.
Can anyone advise me?
I need to know whats going on.
And my DD is begging me to know what's going on.
Phew, I haven't said all this to anyone in real life, except to DH who just says "She'll catch up" and dismisses my concerns.
Thanks for listening!

Sounds as if the school is being utterly hopeless. Sorry.

Can you ask for them to give her a general intelligence test? If she has a high or average IQ, AND the school is not willing to pursue a dyslexia diagnosis, then they are seriously failing as a school if she can't read by year 5.

It is also possible that she has a low IQ (parents are notoriously bad at judging) and may need specialist provision for secondary school.

My son finished year 3 last year at a large inner-city London primary where 80% of the children had English as a second language and most were on free school meals. All of the children in his class (including two with SEN) could read at a much higher level than you describe by the end of year 3. This is not within the normal range.

Your poor DD, that's so demoralising for her. I'm cross with the teachers for brushing you off like that.

Does she recognise any words at all from memory? I tutor maths, obviously not the same as reading, but when I have students who struggle to remember their times tables I get them to write them out as a list. Writing lists of tables in your GCSE exam is absolutely fine, no matter what they tell you I'm the year 4 tables test where they insist that you must be able to remember each one within six seconds. And the act of writing them out does actually make them go into your memory better so eventually you might not need to anymore.

I'm wondering if it could be possible to do something similar with words. Rather than trying to read them, write them out in short lists, with you there reminding her what each word is if she needs it. She could say them out loud as she does it too.

I'm not guaranteeing it will work, but there's something about the act of writing rather than just reading that can make it go into your brain better. It definitely works for me. I have a disability affecting my hands and couldn't write much by the third year of my degree so had to have a note taker in lectures. I found it so much harder to remember everything than in the first two years when I was taking my own notes.

Anyway, I'm not claiming to be an expert, I just thought it's something I can suggest that might possibly help. Good luck to your daughter, I really feel for her, it's so hard feeling yourself being left behind like that.

I agree with everyone saying you need a proper dyslexia assessment. She sounds very like my brother. With the right diagnosis and support and environment, he flourished at school.

You need to pay and get your own Ed Psyche assessment.
It’s expensive but essential. Funding for SEN is so poor that you have no chance of the school doing anything. Unless she starts beating up kids or whacking the teacher.
Sorry get your own assessment.

I have a pretty severe dyslexic DS and was told repeatedly at primary that he did not have dyslexia.

I got him privately tested and it proved he was.

The educational system is letting these children down massively. Ironically for us, high school are far better with providing him the assistance that he needs and apparently university is completely fantastic for support...its a shame that most dyslexics have understandably disengaged by that time.

When are teacher going to understand that it's FAR more than getting b's and d's the wrong way around? Dyslexia affects so many aspects of life.

On the plus side, your DD sounds lovely OP. Not all skills are related to academic ability and cannot be taught...they are part of her makeup. With support, the right intervention and encouragement with her skills she will realise her dreams.

Another thing is she cannot pronounce her words properly. Examples are that the W in 'Weather' is pronounced with her front teeth on her bottom lip. For Never she says 'Nether'. These are just 2 examples, but she mispronounces words hundreds of times a day. No amount of non-stop, endless correcting of her pronunciation by me ever, ever teaches her to remember how to say the word properly. In fact it's counter productive as it upsets her when I correct her, even though I do it in a softly spoken, swing and encouraging way. She just gets really frustrated.
Unfortunately repetition can't help here, she needs to be taught to make the sounds correctly. It's a really complex process for this who can't automatically make the correct sounds. Tongue placement, tongue movement, teeth placement, shape of lips, how open they are, how they move, how to blend the sounds together. I didn't know how complex making simple sounds were until I had my boys and they couldn't just speak like everyone else.

She has very poor short term memory, but excellent long term memory.
She struggles to follow instructions that have more than 2 steps involved, or with any instruction that's too complex. So she has poor working memory and; poor processing speed.

She's had her hearing tested and it's good. It's more as though she is asking the person to repeat themselves so that she can give herself more time to process what they've said before she responds. she has had hearing tests and eye tests - hearing is very good.
Auditory processing disorders don't show in standard hearing tests. It's to do with things like being able to hear the instructions over the noise of her environment. Though I only know the very basics about this and I know it's more complex and involved than what I'm saying.

It sounds like she might have specific learning disorders, dyslexia is one and can't be ruled out by the school screening test. She may also have dyscalculia which is a specific learning disability with mathematics.

What you really need if you can afford it is to go private and get her assessed. The school is not doing right by her and it can make a big difference knowing what the issues are and what she needs. Her school is failing her. Sometimes the only way you can get your child what they need is to keep pushing until it becomes more difficult for the school to deal with you then to deal with getting your child the help they need.

Do you have money?

She needs a private assessment, and then you need a lawyer to force the school to bother to teach her.

She definitely needs a private assessment as others have said. It’s unfortunately a sign of the times that you have to pay but as she’s got so far into primary education with little help from the school I think it’s a necessity.

I have spoken to the SENCO at school about her not benefiting from being in tbe 'focused learning ' group at school, and I was told very starkly there are no resources to give her any other input, i.e. not enough staff to offer any alternative, due to budget cuts.

That by itself demonstrates that the school should have applied for an Education Health and Care Needs Assessment. The main criteria for an assessment is that the child may have SEN and may need an EHCP, and the main criterion for needing an EHCP is that the child's needs can't be met within normal mainstream resources. In effect the school has told you they can't meet your child's needs through those resources so she needs an EHCP.

If they won't apply, you should do so immediately. There's lots of useful information on the SOS SEN and IPSEA websites. It seems clear on any basis that your child needs a full Educational Psychology assessment, which is a part of the process.

She is being failed by the school.

The TA teaching sounds like a complete process waste of time - an untrained and unqualified person is struggling to deal with two badly behaved children. Your daughter is being ignored.

In your situation I would try to find the money to pay for a private tutor for an hour each day.

And definitely I would pay for a private dyslexia assessment.

Unfortunately, when the dyslexia assessment report comes back with recommendations of what your daughter needs, there is no guarantee that the school will provide them 'due to lack of funding'.

So a decent regular tutor is the way to go.

This sounds like me in year 5 OP. I was struggling a lot with reading and writing and was slow and behind with my work. My parents were called in by the teacher to advise that I was of very low intelligence and to try and find me a practical hobby/skill as I would never amount to much. The school had also tested for dyslexia and said I didn’t have it. My parents felt this didn’t fit with what they knew of me at home - I was very chatty and interested. My mum found a private dyslexia centre and had me assessed there. That test showed no issues with IQ but significant dyslexia. I ended up changing school and my parents somehow managed to fund an hour of specialist dyslexia intervention with a wonderful teacher which made an almighty difference.

A lot of what you describe sounds very familiar - especially 2 part instructions! That drove my mum mad for years.

It doesn’t mean she doesn’t have a good future. I ended up going to medical school where I performed well and I’ve enjoyed a very fulfilling career since. It’s just about learning your strategies.

It obviously shouldn’t be this way, but if you can manage it at all financially I would recommend trying to get a practice assessment/help if you can at all. Really wishing you and your daughter all the best.

Whatever you call it, it’s clear that your daughter has some barriers to learning, particularly with reading and writing. She needs an assessment from an educational psychologist to determine what it is that is preventing her from learning and retaining concepts. The trouble is EPs are as rare as hens teeth these days, so if you can fund a private assessment, you’ll have much more information to be able to help her.

It’s wrong to say the school aren’t doing anything, but what they’re doing isn’t working and isn’t improving anything. If you have more information from an assessment, you can apply for an EHCP. You can apply anyway, but an assessment will be important in showing the panel how learning is being compromised.

We and DS went through similar in Y4, and the EdPsych report is vital. Turned out that DS had visual processing at the bottom end of the scale but was otherwise of quite high intelligence. But getting any maintained school to put help in place is a hiding to nowhere: there are so many SEN issues that most don't bother with academic shortcomings and there's only provision for the very worst EBD problems.

I'm wondering if speech to text software might help her in some situations? I knew a very intelligent and articulate year 5 with very severe dyslexia who was able to get their ideas down on paper using speech recognition software and it was great for their self esteem. Worth a try at home?

But as everyone has said, do keep pushing the school. It's not acceptable to lump all SEND children together and give them the same input. It's very hard for schools with their limited resources, but it's so unfair that quiet, compliant children get overlooked for the needs of those who demand attention.

I agree with others and if you can get a private assessment. My son struggles with maths and spelling. Have been told he needs referring for adhd diagnosis along with dyscalculia and dyslexia but the school needed to put the referral through. They spoke to me and said "he's not naughty" so they don't believe he has adhd and that he "just needs to practice his times tables and the rest of the maths will come"
They aren't interested. He coasts along the day quietly so he's basically ignored. I'm sure if he had behaviour issues they'd pay more attention. I unfortunately cannot afford a private assessment.

Can’t you go through your GP?
i am quite alarmed this has been brushed under the carpet for so long. The school sound neglectful and I would be moving her asap. Make a GP appointment like yesterday!!

She sounds like my Foster son good long term memory but struggled to get things from working/short term memory memory into long term memory. I made a nuisance of myself until FS got an Ed Psych referral from school. Like your DD my FS was overlooked because he was well behaved and compliant. He said both his teacher and the class TA spent a lot of time on a few badly behaved children. The Ed Psych referred said he had a learning disability involving memory. She also referred him to speech and language therapist who did a detailed report and confirmed working memory issues. My FS used to listen to the teacher giving instructions start what he had to do then forget. He was given a mini voice recorder to tape his teacher giving instructions then when he forgot he played the recorder and heard instructions again. It did help. As for the reading I just went over and over basic words until eventually more words stuck. His spelling is still dismal. FS had a dyslexia test but it stated although he did follow problems with words and blends he could not be diagnosed as dyslexic because his IQ was low due to memory issues. He did get EHCP and got a space in a special school. A consultant diagnosed him with Developmental Delay and FAS.

Sorry about this - the post I posted last night was in fact a copy of a personal text I sent to my husband!!! I don't know how on earth I did it!!! My phone did something really weird. I had to contact HQ to tell them it was a personal text and ask for it to be edited as it was NOT intended to be a post on mumsnet!
I typed my OP in to the SEN section, didn't get any replies last night so copied and pasted it in to AIBU but bizarrely my phone pasted a text message I'd just sent to DH!!!
Sorry.

You need to look into private tutoring/assessment ASAP. The school can't do everything, instead of fighting them when it was clear they can't/won't help you and losing time you need to be looking into this now. Hope you find the answers your daughter so needs x

Get a referral to an educational psychologist OP and don't take no for an answer. Insist on it. The SENCo at school should be able to provide you with a list of ones they've used in the past.

To me (as a parent with a DC with some of the same difficulties), I would say it sounds very likely your DD has dyslexia, slow processing speed and poor working memory. She may also have other diagnoses too, but it's not just dyslexia and I cannot fathom how she passed the dyslexia test they did at school. It sounds like she quite literally has 'word blindness', which is sometimes used as a descriptor for dyslexia. Many DC with dyslexia are very bright, have wide vocabularies and good spoken English (or whatever is their native language). She also needs a referral to SALT for her speech problems. The waiting list via the NHS is months or years for both of these things, so if you can afford to go private, do it right now. Time is of the essence and every year that's wasted is a year of her education lost.

You're right to be concerned.

Look into applying for an EHCP - it's a long process, but if you start now you should be through by secondary transition stage. That might open doors to - eg - a dyslexia specialist school.

If you can self fund an EP and SALT report and possibly an Auditory Processing Disorder test that will help.

Haven't rtft but just wanted to say, I'll second anyone who had suggested a proper dyslexia screen. One of my DC really struggled at school with spelling and writing. She was checked by the SENCo who said she was fine. Eventually a formal assessment was done: moderate to severe dyslexia.

Once you know dyslexia is the issue (if it is that) there is so much you can do. And a lot of dyslexics are very alert, observant and capable people and do brilliantly once they manage to read.

My son was screened at primary school and it came back as not showing signs of dyslexia. We paid for a WISC V Ed Psych screening (£700) and his dyslexia was shown to be very severe. We used this to get him an EHCP as his dyslexia is very disabling and requires specialist tuition, a TA to scribe and reading pen/ laptop.

The school sound unhelpful and disingenuous, as, even if staffing is limited, your daughter sounds able to undertake independent work beyond colouring. Have a look at IDL and Nessy computer programmes - IDL is rote learning as pupils who are dyslexic often struggle with phonics and need to remember the words through repetition, especially if they have a slow processing speed that impacts the transition of knowledge from working to long term memory. Nessy is similar to Teach your monster to read a gameification of dyslexia specific learning methods. She would need a supervising adult and access to a laptop.

The school appear to be using the focussed learning group to manage the whole classes behaviour - OFSTED would be interested in this as all learning should be adapted not differentiated with no or minimal narrowing of the curriculum for SEN pupils (unless absolutely necessary with clearly shown impact and measurable outcomes).

Stay strong and know you are trying your best - there is no money for SEND but that is not your problem so don't feel ashamed of pushing for the best outcomes for your daughter.

Like your daughter my son is above average in cognitive ability and knows what he is not able to do as easily as his peers. We watch documentaries with him, listen to audio books and take him to museums where the learning is visual. Building his self esteem around learning is as you have described a challenge but it sounds like you are doing a great job.

She is clearly dyslexic.

It is all very well chasing EHCPs and diagnoses, but these things take time, and the clock is ticking. Furthermore my Dcousin who is a primary teacher says in her class she hs students with EHCPs stipulating fulltime 1:1 s but there just isnt the staff. I mean if the school cant recruit someone even via an agency , what are they supposed to do?
I think you need to get a tutor or at least work with her yourself every day.