New Job Offer - Alarm bells!!

[ThePerfectTen]

I have been offered a job, my first f/t job since having children. I know I am able to do the job but I am not sure about the transition required re going back to a f/t career role with young kids, and also have alarm bells after recieving the contract.

Well tbh alarm bells started at interview stage when they were whatsapp'ing me throughout the weekend, including at 8-9pm, regarding interview avalibility, dates and times etc. (I am already worrying about fitting f/t hours in around the family, never mind them thinking that i'm avaliable whenever they want and don't have respect for peoples boundaries/free time)

The initial interviews (not with my manager) mentioned working from home, however the final interview and contract mention only working from the office. (This is a non negotiable for me tbh, i can't mentally give up WFH a few times a week. Now i have children and am older i need for my sanity.)

The contract i have recieved is just too much. It is so controlling, it makes me feel completely uneasy and really anxious. There are loads of references to being 'expected to work as many hours as needed to get the job done' I am in a trusted, responsible role atm and do not want to move to somewhere where i feel like I am signing my life away and being micro managed. Even though they have stressed they don't micromange and its a very senior role at interview stage, the contract definately doesn't really portray the ethos discussed at all. Me and my partner have never seen a contract like it.

Another general concern of mine of returning to f/t work, having childcare for holidays and seeing my children. The contract specifies that a number of holiday periods and bank holidays are not allowed to be taken as annual leave & I have to work bank holidays including the Christmas period and various half terms. Holidays also need to be booked a month in advance (I always book last min deals), health appointments have to be done outside working hours (How is that even possible?) etc etc - Just lots of restrictions i would expect if i was an untrusted employee with no work experience.

My manager also appears to completely live and breath his job 24/7 and is completely over enthusiastic. Although I will work hard and want to do my best. I am definately a work to live mentality now, not live to work so don't know whether i will find this exhausting lol. I also don't think anyone in the company has young children..

One part of me thinks this is a great opportunity, go back to them with my none negotiables, be honest and explain my concerns, get back into job market, prove yourself and make the role your own.

The other part of me says, its all too much, listen to your instincts and keep with your p/t role atm until children are older and able to look after themselves more, you can't take on this extra stress and juggling when its clearly a restrictive environment.

But are there really any jobs out there that tick all the boxes?? Right salary, location, hours, responsibility etc etc...

I just don't want to give up my current, completely flexible, manage my own time (but uninspiring/unmotivating) role and create myself lots of extra pressure by taking on a different job & then realise i have made a big mistake.. but also don't want to have any regrets.

I honestly need some unbiased opinions and thoughts please (Thank you for your time reading this :)

I’m about to start a new job I also see a difference between what was discussed, the feel I got from the company at interview, etc., and the formal black and white of the contract (although anything explicitly agreed is set out). As a pp says, this is normal.

But the restrictions you mention here go way beyond that. Whatsapping at the weekend in and of itself would have me pulling out of this.

I expect they have a boiler-plate contract that is used for everyone and the only thing they change for the different jobs are major things like probation and notice periods. I wonder what kind of organisation it is? If it's like a service or retail industry, there'll be large swathes of junior ranks that need to work those BH and Christmas periods etc. It's pretty normal that companies haven't updated their contracts about wfh, partly because if it's written in, changing it down the line is a million times harder.

I think pretty much every job contract I've ever had say you need to work the hours to get the job done - unless you're on an hourly rate its just normal.

I'd go back and ask about some of the areas you're concerned about, ask for some responses in writing (written agreements can be powerful against a boiler plate contract).

I think I'd give it a try and see what they are actually like to work for, for a month and what happens if you set firm boundaries. If they are shit then start looking for another job straight away. It's usually easier to jump ship once you actually have a job.

If this is all in your employment contract, OP, then I'd have a conversation with them directly about your concerns. Often employment contracts are written by lawyers to apply universally to everyone. For example, I've never worked in a role (except for one) that had contractual sick pay. I've had full pay for sick leave in every single job (and extended compassionate leave which was non contractual).

You're in a strong negotiating position if you've got to this stage in the selection process. Meet with them equal to equal, and set out your stall. Assuming it goes well, follow up with an email setting out what was agreed at that meeting. You then have documentary evidence.

I also wouldn't be overly concerned re the out of hours contact at this point. They might might not want to raise any concerns with current employer by contacting you during working time

Congratulations on the offer. Good luck with whatever you decide.

It depends what the job is.

I used to be a teacher and it is very much you do it until the job is done.
Sometimes that means you can leave at 4, sometimes for things like parents evening you have to stay until 8pm or later.
If you have a deadline then it’s common to stay up until midnight getting it done.
And most emails and work related texts are of course sent evenings and weekends because they can’t usually be sent during the daytime.

The job that I’m starting has also been sending emails and texts during the evenings and weekends as it’s often not possible to do it during the working day but you don’t have to respond to them straight away if you’re unhappy about it.

I would try and work out if this is just nerves or if it genuinely sounds like a bad job.

I have a new job which I’ve been looking forward to and all of a sudden I don’t want to do it because I’m seeing all of the negatives but I think it’s just anxiety.

I actually got an email from HR saying that as I was unsuccessful for this position they’d like to have permission to keep my CV on file. I was gutted and almost started crying. They had made a mistake and I had in fact got the job but it made me realise that I do actually want it.

How would you feel if they said the position was no longer available?

I would say that there is already a toxic work environment where it’s clear that they expect responses and will use your personal number to contact you when they feel necessary as well as being required to work as longer hours as is necessary to complete the task which suggests it will often be longer hours than you are contracted for.

personally I would remain in your current role and keep looking

Holidays also need to be booked a month in advance (I always book last min deals)

This is the only reasonable request as far as I can tell. All jobs require booking leave in advance - you know you can still book a last minute deal, you just need to look for the dates you've booked in advance.

I would absolutely not sign this contract. Go back with your requirements, ask them to amend the contract and do not sign or accept unless they do. I have a salaried role and my contract does not say that I am expected to work all the hours until my work is done. For many jobs, the work is never really finished so this doesn't make sense to me.

You wouldn't usually need to amend the contract, an email confirming your personal terms would be fine.

I think that a lot of the contract terms sound fairly standard and wouldn't be too bothered about those.

The screaming red flag for me would be the weekend whatsapping/expectation that you're available 24/7.

I work in an industry in which it would be very easy to be 'on' all day every day, and it's SO important to have strong boundaries on this. My team know that if there is a true emergency (fire, flood, bodily harm) I will contact them over the weekend/OOH but otherwise I support them (and myself) in having protected hours away from work. The fact that they're doing this before you've even signed a contract would be a deal breaker for me, I'm afraid.

Do not take this job.

They won’t change their culture because you give them a list of non negotiables. I’d swerve this one.

Most of it sounds standard to me for a position that’s salaried/reasonably senior. My contracts (lawyer) have always had similar clauses. It doesn’t mean that the reality is that I’ve had no flexibility, in fact I’ve always had plenty.

Plus there a difference between “you should ordinarily try to make medical appointments outside of your usual working hours” versus “you must make all medical appointments outside working hours”.

Speak to them. But it wouldn’t put me off. Being a lawyer isn’t a 9-5 job though.

Just no

I don't know what industry you are in but I work in one that is not known for its flexibility or being particularly family friendly. However, I returned from my 3rd mat leave to this new role where at interview my boss told me the most important thing is family and they meant it. I WFH, I amended my office hours so I can be home for bedtime (long commute!) and I am trusted to do my job and left to get on with it.

These companies and roles do exist. I passed on roles previously due to office hours or no flexibility around WFH. If you can, please wait until you find the right role in the right company. Not one that will take their pound of flesh and expect you to say thank you!

Don't take it , it sounds like a disaster for your mental health , a ploddy old job that allows you to balance other parts of your life sound better atm , and your children will only ever be this age once .

Personally I think you’re reading too much into all this. The contract clauses all sound fairly standard in any contract I’ve ever had for a professional role. They will always say about working the hours to complete the tasks (that’s more to say there is no overtime), booking holiday in advance is standard (my contract says that but my manager still lets me book last minute if my diary allows). Certain times you can’t take holiday, again comple the ky standard depending on the role and I’ve know that in contracts in retail or finance as there are certain busy times of the year.

The messaging outside of normal work hours, was that the new manager of the recruitment team? Again it’s fairly standard for a recruitment team to message out of hours, ours do and it’s to give candidates the best service. Most people are looking for a job whilst still working full time in a current one, so being able to talk outside of normal working hours is a massive plus.

I understand you’re probably finding the transition scary, but nothing you’ve raised it be concerns for me.

You can advise them of your "non-negotiables" all you like, they may even give you the responses you are looking for however you won't change the culture of an organisation like this. They are unlikely to change to suit you, they will try and force you into the mould they want.

I would run a mile. Surely it's not just a choice between your current p/t job and this (very unappealing) option? I would continue the search.

Keep looking.

TO be honest this is why I would never take on full time work while I still have children to look after - I admire anyone who can handle it but I just don't think there is enough 'give' in a full time role.

With part time work I can always jiggle things about and use the 'spare' time to get my work done when it suits me - I've generally worked every day when workign part time but it reduces the pressure to be constantly available.

I wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole but I would carry on looking for another full time job.

I think you should be guided by the rapport with your direct line manager in the first instance, and if that was good and you think he’s a person you would get on with, go back and state your non-negotiables that you would need the contract amending for (some wfh, less restrictions on leave etc).

There’s probably a gap between your role, and your line managers expectations, and the boiler plate contract that is drafted by HR.

I do think you should go back to them and share your concerns, you can frame this in the context of wanting to be able to perform at your best, but if your line manager is a workaholic micro-manager then your life will be miserable regardless of the contract !

Set out your expectations now before you start and get the contract rewritten

If they do not agree you've dodged a bullet imho

For a "very senior role" a lot of that (though not all) sounds pretty standard, but overall this doesn't sound like the job for you

You could approach them to negotiate and discuss your own red lines, but anything you agree could easily get frittered away on "Could you justs ...", and would you really be happy in a place where your own expectations don't match their particular culture?

I wouldn't take the rather combative "You're out of line / you'll never get decent people this way" attitude some have suggested though. The ability to attract the right candidates is their issue to address, and if they can currently get who they want fair enough - and if they can't they'll learn soon enough

Sounds ridiculous

tbh alarm bells started at interview stage - they started as they mean to go on (it being the company norm?)
You have doubts..
Walk away - if it sounds/feels wrong for you, it is wrong for you.

YANBU - sounds very inflexible with regards to wfh and annual leave. I would speak to them about those points and see what could be done to make it more appetising but if they just say no or won’t put something in writing then don’t take it. Least you have a job already and can find a position that works better for you - there are plenty of family friendly firms out there! Just imagine not spending Christmas and bank holidays with your children - a few would be acceptable but it sounds like you have to work all of them.

This sounds like madness but if you're already wondering whether to walk away you've nothing to lose by laying out your concerns/expectations including:

1. is a work mobile provided? Make it clear you will be switching off outside working hours and not be contactable.
2. WFH - whatever was offered at interview needs to be reflected in the contract If you can't work in the office more than x days a week and this was agreed, make sure this is in writing.
3. 30 days notice of holidays is very common but if it specifies no AL during school holidays and you can't accommodate this you need to tell them and ask what they can

If they won't budge or discuss the above I'd definitely say walk away - be polite but make it clear it's because the terms of the role are not as agreed/advertised.