Page 10 | ...to think teachers DO get paid over the holidays?

MasterBeth · 2023-08-29T13:35:09+00:00

It doesn't make sense to me. Some people say teachers don't get paid over the holidays. They are paid, they say, for 40 weeks, but their money is aggregated over 52 weeks and paid monthly. What does that even mean? How is it (practically) any different to being paid (less per week) for 52 weeks?

viques · 29/08/2023 18:04

Holidayvibes · 29/08/2023 16:55

So they can if they want an nobody complains.

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Indeed, and most of those lucky buggers can book their holidays when they want to take them, ie not during expensive peak times, which of course as we all know are flipping school holidays.

Tulipvase · 29/08/2023 18:05

blackbird77 · 29/08/2023 17:43

Yes, the only paid holiday days full-time teachers get is the minimum statutory requirement of 20 days plus 8 days bank holidays. So yes they do get 28 days holiday days paid which is factored into their annual salary. Anything in excess of this is unpaid.

Thats why you were correct @Tulipvase to question the assertion from a PP that part-time teachers get the same amount of paid holidays that full-time teachers get. They don’t. A part-time teacher that works half the days a full-time teacher does only gets 14 days of paid holiday instead of 28 days paid. The days all teachers have off school in excess of their legal statutory allowance are not paid-holiday days nor are they working days. They are simply days of the year that teachers (regardless if they are full-time or part-time) are not contracted to work in schools by the government e.g August.

I feel that there would be so much less confusion if people just understood the 6 week “summer holiday” as non-contractual working weeks for teachers instead of “paid teacher holiday”. Like a seasonal worker. If the government wanted to reduce the summer holidays from 6 weeks to 5 weeks, they would have to pay teachers 1 weeks more worth of pay each year.

A bit like if a park pays an ice cream man to work from April through to September each year (including statutory holiday pay). The months he doesn’t work (October through to March) are not his “paid holiday”. They are days in the year he is not contractually hired to work for. The fact that teachers get 12 equal payments for their 195 days worked spread throughout the year is for ease of administration by the employer and employee.

Of course, teachers work well well in excess of the hours they are paid for each week, making what looks like a reasonable annual salary abysmal in reality when you actually work out the pay-per-hour for hours totalled over the year but that’s a conversation for another day!

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Thank goodness you could explain this.

viques · 29/08/2023 18:06

Whichwhatnow · 29/08/2023 17:57

I have literally no skin in this game - I don't have kids, I don't really have much interest in teachers. It's just all the posts that are irritating (and there are a LOT). I generally try to avoid these threads because they're just so annoying but it's actually quite hard to avoid. You all seem to be in a tragic victim echo chamber of teachers just telling each other how hard done by you are. I usually wouldn't engage but this is just TOO annoying.

I mean, name another profession that goes on and on about how terrible their lives are in the way teachers do on here??

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Nurses?

( runs and hides)

UsernameAlreadyTaken101 · 29/08/2023 18:09

Whichwhatnow · 29/08/2023 17:57

I have literally no skin in this game - I don't have kids, I don't really have much interest in teachers. It's just all the posts that are irritating (and there are a LOT). I generally try to avoid these threads because they're just so annoying but it's actually quite hard to avoid. You all seem to be in a tragic victim echo chamber of teachers just telling each other how hard done by you are. I usually wouldn't engage but this is just TOO annoying.

I mean, name another profession that goes on and on about how terrible their lives are in the way teachers do on here??

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I think teachers on here get defensive as there are some very opinionated parents. Everyone has an opinion on teaching because they all went to school but people don't get that it's a completely different job from what you might have thought when you were a pupil, or from what you see on the other side as a parent. I would never dream of suggesting I know how to do my doctor's job just because I've been a patient.
I have to admit that it's not what I thought it would be and the 'teaching' is only a part of what I do every day. It's insulting when people think it's an easy ride. Obviously there are much harder jobs in terms of hours worked and stress levels but generally people in those professions are more respected by their clientele.

Yourebeingtooloud · 29/08/2023 18:10

Qilin · 29/08/2023 16:02

Plus also, if teachers work part-time, they still have 100% of their leave, whereas with any other profession, it's pro-rata...

Well yes, but that's because the school closure days are set by the school and/or Lea. It isn't self selecting.

It also works the other way round too, usually - ime anyway.

For example: If a part time teacher works W-F, for example, then those Monday bank holidays - they just don't get them. They aren't given pro-rata.

Well and also - they’re only paid on a part time rate in the holidays too.

So in a non teaching job, working 3 days a week - you use 3 days leave to get a full 5 days off. In teaching, working 3 days a week, you get paid the equivalent of 3/5 of all the paid holiday. So it’s the same.

Tulipvase · 29/08/2023 18:11

Whichwhatnow · 29/08/2023 17:57

I have literally no skin in this game - I don't have kids, I don't really have much interest in teachers. It's just all the posts that are irritating (and there are a LOT). I generally try to avoid these threads because they're just so annoying but it's actually quite hard to avoid. You all seem to be in a tragic victim echo chamber of teachers just telling each other how hard done by you are. I usually wouldn't engage but this is just TOO annoying.

I mean, name another profession that goes on and on about how terrible their lives are in the way teachers do on here??

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I find lots of other ‘hard done by’ professions don’t need to stick up for themselves as others do it for them, the NHS for example. Funnily enough the Police don’t garner much support either.

noblegiraffe · 29/08/2023 18:22

dear god why

FatandRoundBouncingontheGround · 29/08/2023 18:32

Nanaof1 · 29/08/2023 17:46

Boggles the mind.

Mary awakens at 6 a.m. so that she can get ready, get her lunch and the children's lunches together and leaves at 7:30 a.m. for school. Her children have to get a neighbor/friend to get them to school because teachers need to be at school before the children. Mary gets paid to teach children the basic skills they need in life and advanced skills that may get them a decent job and be able to read a basic instruction manual. Her children are in after-school care because she cannot leave until an hour after her children are oos. During that extra hour, she works on grading papers, seeing if any child seems to be lagging and takes home the rest of the work to grade/read and make the next days lesson plan. She gets paid a whopping 30-40K a year and OMG! She gets holidays off!

Jane, who WFH, gets up at 7:30 a.m. , drops her kids off at school and goes to work in a blouse and pj bottoms. She works on a computer and can get up and go to the bathroom anytime she needs, get a coffee or juice, eat at her desk. She takes a break at 10 a.m. to get laundry going and text a friend. Another break at noon for lunch, more laundry and think about dinner. After she takes a break and gets the kids home at 3:30, she gives them a snack and tells them to watch TV/play on their phones, do homework etc. Jane gets paid 60K a year and is now in a panic because her work is now requiring her to go to the office twice a week. She also gets holidays off and paid 4 weeks of holiday time. Jane is demanding a raise if she is going to have to commute, get dressed, and put her children in after-school care.

One of these things is not like the other. I won't get into the abuse Mary has to take every. single. day. from students, parents, principals, because, after all, that's what she gets paid for, right?

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Suki is a hospital nurse/ 24 hr supermarket worker. She is has a 4 week work rosta. Sometimes she does 8am starts, sometimes 2pm, sometimes 8pm. None of these work with school drop off and pick ups so her kids are also in wrap around care; she has to use her elderly parents as school based care isn't flexible enough. She never gets to work from home. She gets paid 30k a year and like most workers also gets just 4 weeks holiday.

Teachers do work hard. I know first hand as a former teacher (I did not leave due to workload or mental wellbeing; I left to pursue a career I had to teach first in order to achieve, I lived teaching and missed it a great deal). It's the conviction that some teachers have that they are the most hard working, underpaid, overstretched, hard done to profession that gets people's backs up. If you really feel like everyone else is swanning around getting paid a fortune for doing sod all, then why not swap career?

CrossStitchX · 29/08/2023 18:36

MasterBeth · 29/08/2023 17:25

I don't think I have ever had my pay broekn down into a hourly rate. Not since I was working in Bejam* as a Saturday job in the sixth form.

(*Ask your parents)

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Hello fellow Bejam worker @MasterBeth . I remember the popper down the front uniform, it was a yellow/blue stripe if I recall. Sad day when it was taken over by Iceland.

My first part time job. Think I earned something like £1.96 an hour and I thought I was MINTED.

Hardbackwriter · 29/08/2023 18:37

Redlocks30 · 29/08/2023 18:02

I mean, name another profession that goes on and on about how terrible their lives are in the way teachers do on here??

It virtually always in response to people saying things like..

Yeah but, you have it easy.
You only work 9-3 and have half the year off.
Can’t you just use the same plans as last year?
Must be nice to never need childcare.
Teachers are lazy.
You only work part time.

etc etc

Teachers respond with, ‘actually it’s quite hard work and I don’t work 9-3’ and are then told that teachers always moan!

I say nothing now to people who say things like this. It’s easier to just ignore them and walk off.

My teacher DH just replies with 'I know, bloody brilliant isn't it?!' and goes on about how fantastic it is having so much holiday. I thoroughly recommend this, it really annoys people.

Missflowers1981 · 29/08/2023 18:50

I always understood it as I’m paid for approx 9+ months and the salary is split over 12 monthly payments. The pros for me are that it allows me to manage money better if I was just paid for 9 months I might have to pay more tax because of the salary increase each month and might be tempted to spend the increase in salary! And would have to ensure I saved enough to cover the non months/ weeks of payment.
Because as I understand the salary would increase if the school holidays were reduced on this basis as it is 195 days we are actually paid for.

Missflowers1981 · 29/08/2023 18:52

I have to add I’d actually prefer if the summer holidays were reduced ( I might be the only one 😂- just because 3 -4 weeks off for me in the summer is enough to rest and holiday- it can end being more expensive as I tend to spend a lot more money during the holidays than term time).

lavenderlou · 29/08/2023 18:56

As PP have explained, teachers are paid for the contracted 195 days plus statutory holiday amount and bank holidays, which leaves approximately 8-9 weeks "unpaid". These weeks are not specified.

During some of this uncontracted time there will be tasks that need completing. Eg, my first "contracted" day of the new academic year is 4th September. That's a non-pupil day but my contracted hours have been filled for that day with training. I went in today and during the summer break the classrooms have been cleaned and all furniture moved and stacked. I spent several hours putting it back and still have some display boards, labels etc to do plus planning. It would be impossible to get this done before the students come back without doing it during non-contracted time.

Because of the additional length of non-contracted time compared to professions requiring a similar level of training, responsibility etc, teacher pay is comparatively lower. Despite having to work some non-contracted time, most of us still get a lot more holiday than those other professions. For many teachers, this extra holiday time used to make up for the lesser pay. Increasingly, however, many teachers are preferring to leave the profession (and ita holidays) hence the problems with recruitment. The longer holidays are no longer much of an incentive for keeping people in the job.

Walkaround · 29/08/2023 19:08

@MasterBeth - you were asking what relevance the hourly rate has to a salaried employee. The relevance is the National Minimum Wage (and probably/possibly other areas of employment law, I don’t know - you’d need to speak to an employment law specialist if you were genuinely interested). It must be possible (as in, it is the law) to work out from your employment contract what you basic annual hours are in return for your salary. From that you can calculate your basic hourly rate. If you are working so many extra hours on top of the number of hours set out in your contract that your actual hourly rate falls below the minimum wage, that is illegal.

Original poster

MasterBeth · 29/08/2023 19:30

Nanaof1 · 29/08/2023 17:46

Boggles the mind.

Mary awakens at 6 a.m. so that she can get ready, get her lunch and the children's lunches together and leaves at 7:30 a.m. for school. Her children have to get a neighbor/friend to get them to school because teachers need to be at school before the children. Mary gets paid to teach children the basic skills they need in life and advanced skills that may get them a decent job and be able to read a basic instruction manual. Her children are in after-school care because she cannot leave until an hour after her children are oos. During that extra hour, she works on grading papers, seeing if any child seems to be lagging and takes home the rest of the work to grade/read and make the next days lesson plan. She gets paid a whopping 30-40K a year and OMG! She gets holidays off!

Jane, who WFH, gets up at 7:30 a.m. , drops her kids off at school and goes to work in a blouse and pj bottoms. She works on a computer and can get up and go to the bathroom anytime she needs, get a coffee or juice, eat at her desk. She takes a break at 10 a.m. to get laundry going and text a friend. Another break at noon for lunch, more laundry and think about dinner. After she takes a break and gets the kids home at 3:30, she gives them a snack and tells them to watch TV/play on their phones, do homework etc. Jane gets paid 60K a year and is now in a panic because her work is now requiring her to go to the office twice a week. She also gets holidays off and paid 4 weeks of holiday time. Jane is demanding a raise if she is going to have to commute, get dressed, and put her children in after-school care.

One of these things is not like the other. I won't get into the abuse Mary has to take every. single. day. from students, parents, principals, because, after all, that's what she gets paid for, right?

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Adesola is a cleaner in a care home, even though she has a degree in biochemistry. She works shifts for shit money and has athlete’s foot. The buses don’t run when she needs them and has irritable bowel syndrome. She can’t get to parents’ evening because she’s working and the teachers judge her for it. She wishes she earned what they do, even though she knows they have a thankless job.

OP posts:

noblegiraffe · 29/08/2023 19:34

With a degree in biochemistry Adesola could get paid £29k tax free to train as a teacher.

Original poster

MasterBeth · 29/08/2023 19:36

She reads Mumsnet so she’s heard it’s a mug’s game.

OP posts:

itsgettingweird · 29/08/2023 19:38

School staff don't get paid holidays.

I have a specialist role and get unqualified teacher salary.

So it's 40 weeks a year pay and 4.6 weeks holiday pay. I get 44.6 weeks pay.

But it's paid equally over 12 months.

So months where I work the full days I get less than my actual hourly salary and months where I don't work (august) I still get the same.

The annual salary reflects the number of hours I work in the school. It doesn't reflect any extra hours I do, days I work during days I'm not paid for (so any of the days beyond the 40 weeks I'm physically paid to be in).

It's exactly the same for teachers on the main teachers scale. However their salary reflects the number of weeks school runs for and holiday pay. They do MUCH more. So the pay is very low for the number of hours they actually work.

MistressIggi · 29/08/2023 19:41

I'm not talking about pay though, I'm talking about part-time teachers benefiting from extra time off work, comparatively. Theoretically a teacher could work one day a week and still have 65 days holiday a year
I'm not understanding this. Say I work Mon-Wed. In the school holidays, I still get Mon - Wed as holidays. Thurs, Fri, Sat and Sun are not "holidays" for me as they are just days I don't work, same as all the other Thurs-Sundays that there are in a year.

Takoneko · 29/08/2023 19:58

There’s still clearly a lot of misunderstanding. Admittedly because it is odd and confusing.

Teacher contracts were negotiated on the basis that the remuneration was deemed fair for teachers to be directed to work 195 days per year and for the rest to be “holidays” and that this covers their statutory holiday entitlement. That doesn’t mean that they are only paid for statutory holiday entitlement. It isn’t that simple. When teachers miss a day of work unpaid (for example when taking strike action) pay is deducted at 1/365th of salary per day not 1/223rd (which would be the case if we were only paid for 195 days plus 28 days statutory leave.) Teachers are paid for every day of the year but are only contracted to be directed for work on 195 of them.

Walkaround · 29/08/2023 20:15

Takoneko · 29/08/2023 19:58

There’s still clearly a lot of misunderstanding. Admittedly because it is odd and confusing.

Teacher contracts were negotiated on the basis that the remuneration was deemed fair for teachers to be directed to work 195 days per year and for the rest to be “holidays” and that this covers their statutory holiday entitlement. That doesn’t mean that they are only paid for statutory holiday entitlement. It isn’t that simple. When teachers miss a day of work unpaid (for example when taking strike action) pay is deducted at 1/365th of salary per day not 1/223rd (which would be the case if we were only paid for 195 days plus 28 days statutory leave.) Teachers are paid for every day of the year but are only contracted to be directed for work on 195 of them.

@Takoneko - are you sure that isn’t because strike pay is not related to the employment contract, as a strike is technically a breach of contract? To link strike pay to your legal, contractual entitlement is to be confusing two different issues, I would have thought.

Zonder · 29/08/2023 20:16

MistressIggi · 29/08/2023 19:41

I'm not talking about pay though, I'm talking about part-time teachers benefiting from extra time off work, comparatively. Theoretically a teacher could work one day a week and still have 65 days holiday a year
I'm not understanding this. Say I work Mon-Wed. In the school holidays, I still get Mon - Wed as holidays. Thurs, Fri, Sat and Sun are not "holidays" for me as they are just days I don't work, same as all the other Thurs-Sundays that there are in a year.

Exactly. And if I work 5 mornings while the 5 afternoons are my own time I still only get 5 mornings off in the holidays as the afternoons are still my own time.

MistressIggi · 29/08/2023 20:20

In Scotland, we lost 1/235 of our annual salary for each strike day.

noblegiraffe · 29/08/2023 20:21

In Scotland you get the paid statutory holiday in your contract. We don't in England.

Takoneko · 29/08/2023 20:42

Walkaround · 29/08/2023 20:15

@Takoneko - are you sure that isn’t because strike pay is not related to the employment contract, as a strike is technically a breach of contract? To link strike pay to your legal, contractual entitlement is to be confusing two different issues, I would have thought.

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It’s definitely linked. You are in breach of contract and therefore your employer can withhold a day’s pay to reflect that. Because teacher contracts under the SPCD don’t explicitly say “you are only paid for term time plus statutory holiday entitlement” teachers in England, unlike Scotland, are technically paid for all the holidays (and weekends) and it’s up to them to choose when and where they work outside of 1265 hours on 195 days where they can be “directed” to get their job done. This works in our favour when it comes to strikes or unpaid leave as our deductions end up being smaller than colleagues in Scotland. Unfortunately, it means that the whole “not paid for the holidays” thing is technically untrue, even though it reflects that any increase in directed time days would have to be renegotiated in terms of salary as it would be a fundamental change to our working arrangements.