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Original poster

Women should be prevented from drug taking in pregnancy

525 replies

Caterpillarsleftfoot · 29/08/2023 13:51

I have just come back from a holiday with my nephew's who were exposed to drugs in utero (adopted). I'm also a school teacher who has taught drug and alcohol exposed children.

Seeing the challenges they face made me think why on earth it is allowed.

If you hurt your child every day when they are 6 months, 2 years, 5 years old then they are removed from your care. Why are you allowed to hurt an unborn baby? If a woman is known to take drugs or daily alcohol, then why is she not taken into a protective custody in a hospital/ secure unit for the remainder of the pregnancy to prevent her harming the child?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Insommmmnia · 29/08/2023 17:35

coffeeandcake00 · 29/08/2023 17:23

If you can tell me of a time when you have cared for a person who developed a lifelong disability as a result of someone abusing drugs during pregnancy then I will accept your statement. Or do you just resort to using swear words when someone disagrees with you?

Show quote history

I have a lifelong congenital disability

I still support women having bodily autonomy

Otherwise we become "pre pregnant" where we are not allowed to drink or smoke etc from puberty to menopause because our bodies aren't ours they are just there to support the potential baby we might have

We want to give female foetuses massive amounts of rights then strip them from them when they hit 12 or 13

That's madness. Because if you open the door to the option of removing bodily autonomy in one senario you open the door to removing them in a whole load of scenarios you might never have envisaged

OctoGirl · 29/08/2023 17:37

CaptainMyCaptain · 29/08/2023 13:56

Keep them chained up for 9 months? 🙄

Slightly hyperbolic but in theory, yes. You could institutionalise women who take drugs whilst pregnant

notlucreziaborgia · 29/08/2023 17:40

coffeeandcake00 · 29/08/2023 16:44

Nobody has a practical answer. But what I hate is all the posters who jump in waving the flag of bodily autonomy, jumping to big conclusions about how apparently the OP wants to bring the Handmaid's tale to life whilst completely ignoring the people living with lifelong disabilities. I wander how many of you would be willing to take on a role caring for these people who will need care for the rest of their life? I have. But I suspect most of you would prefer to sit back comfortably in your middle class homes, wearing your bodily autonomy t-shirt and thinking you are making a difference in life by doing so. You are helping no one.

There is a practical answer though, the law as it is now.

Law in a free society doesn’t legislate for everything, and nor does it seek to. Using ‘for the greater good’ to violate basic liberties and implement authoritarian measures can indeed be a great selling point, but invariably both the intended and unintended consequences lead very swiftly to buyers remorse.

annahay · 29/08/2023 17:41

@Joeylove88 are you seriously suggesting fat people should have their children removed from them? That's outrageous.

coffeeandcake00 · 29/08/2023 17:41

Cornettoninja · 29/08/2023 17:32

I’m not resorting to shit @coffeeandcake00, I just like swearing. Enhances the tone.

Until you’ve worked with women routinely abused (which is what incarcerating a pregnant woman would be), managing an addiction etc I don’t really think your opinion is unbiased or rounded enough to fully take into consideration all the consequences. You may see one element of the suffering and destruction caused but you’re completely dismissing other elements.

And then making huge assumptions about strangers on the internet to try and illustrate that your opinion is the only worthy one.

so I stand by what I posted.

I have routinely worked with women who have been routinely abused, many of whom have an addiction. It is part of my role. If a women is pregnant and suffering from addiction I help to get them the medical attention they need to either access an abortion if they choose or to enter programmes that will help them to overcome their addiction and to go on to have a healthy pregnancy. But as you have said, I have also seen the other side and I do not believe their voices should be ignored or forgotten so people can blindly fly the flag of bodily autonomy without seeing the reality.

notlucreziaborgia · 29/08/2023 17:42

You can fully acknowledge and understand the devastation caused by exposure to drugs in uteri, and still consider that to be preferable to the alternative.

minipie · 29/08/2023 17:43

I would be interested people’s thoughts on the prevention approaches I mentioned upthread eg

  • pay drug taking women to have the injection/implant
  • offer drug taking women rehab treatment on condition of having the injection/implant
  • if a woman has already had one or more drug damaged children, and is still using, enforce the injection/implant (this is obviously the most controversial)

What do you think?

annahay · 29/08/2023 17:46

minipie · 29/08/2023 17:43

I would be interested people’s thoughts on the prevention approaches I mentioned upthread eg

  • pay drug taking women to have the injection/implant
  • offer drug taking women rehab treatment on condition of having the injection/implant
  • if a woman has already had one or more drug damaged children, and is still using, enforce the injection/implant (this is obviously the most controversial)

What do you think?

I don't think paying an addict to use contraception is ethical. They are likely just thinking of it as a means to their next fix, so I'd argue it could be considered coercive to leverage that against contraceptive.

I think these people should have access to rehabilitation services, without conditions attached.

Insommmmnia · 29/08/2023 17:47

minipie · 29/08/2023 17:43

I would be interested people’s thoughts on the prevention approaches I mentioned upthread eg

  • pay drug taking women to have the injection/implant
  • offer drug taking women rehab treatment on condition of having the injection/implant
  • if a woman has already had one or more drug damaged children, and is still using, enforce the injection/implant (this is obviously the most controversial)

What do you think?

That sounds like eugenics

Try finding a doctor willing to pay a drug addict to have a medical procedure performed on them, that's not consent that's coercion

This opens the door to other eugenics. What about when we move on to paying poor people to go on permanent contraceptive. Or immigrants, or disabled people?

SouthLondonMum22 · 29/08/2023 17:47

notlucreziaborgia · 29/08/2023 17:42

You can fully acknowledge and understand the devastation caused by exposure to drugs in uteri, and still consider that to be preferable to the alternative.

Exactly.

No one is saying they agree with it or that it isn't devastating.

Hibiscrubbed · 29/08/2023 17:47

Caterpillarsleftfoot · 29/08/2023 14:10

I am genuinely so shocked that people are so pro women and anti protection of a child. I absolutely cannot wrap my head around the idea that do many people are ok with knowing a woman is hurting a baby but allowing it to continue.

I don't think you do have a "right" to decide what goes in your body when it's harming another human.

Those who say you can't pick and choose body autonomy or where to draw the line. Of course you can. That would be like asking where the line for child protection/ removal of children/ adoption is. Uncomfortable as it is, there is a line that can be crossed.

Your attitude is the one that is shocking. Truly. You think it’s ok to physically remove a woman’s autonomy to protect an unborn foetus… terrifying.

Dolores87 · 29/08/2023 17:47

Most drug addicts are very traumatised people. Forcibly locking up women because they are pregnant won't at all lead to good outcomes for mother and baby. It'll make it more likely the parent will continue in active addiction once they are out and you end up with more children in care. When you are an addict and you get pregnant in most areas you are referred to a specialist substance use midwife and it has far better outcomes for families to support women out of active addiction - and yes sometimes that takes time.

This thread is so fucked up and shows a complete ignorance to addiction. Not to mention that loads of medications are damaging to fetuses but mother needs them.

Women are not incubation units and drug addicts are people that need support not monsters. The dehumanising of addicts in threads like this is gross.

SouthLondonMum22 · 29/08/2023 17:48

minipie · 29/08/2023 17:43

I would be interested people’s thoughts on the prevention approaches I mentioned upthread eg

  • pay drug taking women to have the injection/implant
  • offer drug taking women rehab treatment on condition of having the injection/implant
  • if a woman has already had one or more drug damaged children, and is still using, enforce the injection/implant (this is obviously the most controversial)

What do you think?

I don't agree with it for the reasons pp's have stated.

Rachie1973 · 29/08/2023 17:50

Caterpillarsleftfoot · 29/08/2023 14:10

I am genuinely so shocked that people are so pro women and anti protection of a child. I absolutely cannot wrap my head around the idea that do many people are ok with knowing a woman is hurting a baby but allowing it to continue.

I don't think you do have a "right" to decide what goes in your body when it's harming another human.

Those who say you can't pick and choose body autonomy or where to draw the line. Of course you can. That would be like asking where the line for child protection/ removal of children/ adoption is. Uncomfortable as it is, there is a line that can be crossed.

Foetus. Not child. Get your terminology right and then it makes more sense..

My body. My choice. Wise or otherwise.

londonrach · 29/08/2023 17:51

What a horrible person you are ..I had a patient who had to take drugs due to her medical condition...she was vvv carefully monitored but the GP who wrote to us saying how scared she was she damaged her baby. I'm a ahp and got to play with a bright 6 month year old and say it's all ok. Mum and baby had died if not taken this drugs...if she reads your comments she be so upset . Please be wary most drugs mums take they need too .

Rachie1973 · 29/08/2023 17:52

WeWereInParis · 29/08/2023 15:00

If a woman is known to take drugs or daily alcohol, then why is she not taken into a protective custody in a hospital/ secure unit for the remainder of the pregnancy to prevent her harming the child?

This is one of the most batshit things I've read on here, and that's saying something.

A secure unit, that pregnant women are presumably physically forced into (by police?) and then locked in. How do you know which women? Are you forcing them to submit to a blood test, holding them down for that? At every antenatal appointment you're pinning women down to enforce this? Or maybe just get the police to cart off every woman who declines the test?

And you can't see any potential issues with that? Aside from human rights (which you've dismissed), there's the fact that this would absolutely discourage pregnant women who'd come under this from seeking any medical care at all throughout their pregnancy. That definitely seems best for the baby. Women would simply not call their local midwife service and book appointments, no one official would know they're pregnant. Maybe the police could randomly check any pregnant women they see on the street to make sure they've submitted to their mandatory drug tests?

Not to mention when she finally gave birth she’d be clean, so would we have to still remove the child ‘in case’ she uses again?

CaptainMyCaptain · 29/08/2023 18:24

OctoGirl · 29/08/2023 17:37

Slightly hyperbolic but in theory, yes. You could institutionalise women who take drugs whilst pregnant

Show quote history

Where? There are not enough places on rehab as it is. Not to mention all the other arguments against this plan already detailed above.

GrannyGoggins · 29/08/2023 18:25

@Caterpillarsleftfoot I'm a little confused. So you think a woman shouldn't be able to do anything to harm her unborn child but you are pro abortion, which is harming an unborn child? If you could explain a bit more.

NameChangeEmbarressed · 29/08/2023 18:32

GrannyGoggins · 29/08/2023 18:25

@Caterpillarsleftfoot I'm a little confused. So you think a woman shouldn't be able to do anything to harm her unborn child but you are pro abortion, which is harming an unborn child? If you could explain a bit more.

Incorrect.

Abortion is removing an unwanted or non viable foetus.

If it was harming a child it would not be legal.

Rachie1973 · 29/08/2023 18:36

Joeylove88 · 29/08/2023 16:28

No like you said you can't lock everyone up but surely you can impose a law that drug abuse during pregnancy can and will lead to your baby immediately being taken away? I mean if they are going to abuse their own babies before birth then why do they deserve a chance as parents to continue to neglect and abuse these babies? It should be very clear and simple, no alcohol, drug etc abuse while pregnant (proved by blood tests) or you lose the baby. Then they still have a choice to carry on using but they forfeit the privilege of keeping their baby. I do feel the same about smoking and obesity to be honest. People with smoking and eating addictions should be offered the chance to really try and change their smoking a eating habits whilst pregnant and going forwards for the child's and their own sakes. The same for the alcohol and drugs really but the onus should really be put onto the person to put the effort in to work hard with their doctors/midwives etc to cut out/severely reduce this, to prove they do want to change and be good parents.

Show quote history

You do realise of course that there are fat, smoking foster parents right?

So let’s remove the children from their fat, smoking parents and give them to erm ..... me. Who happens to be a ‘chubby’ smoker but is deemed a good parent so therefore passed the panel and jumped through all the hoops to become a foster carer.

Oh and btw where will you find these foster parents because in my local authority there are about 6 of us.

Hibiscrubbed · 29/08/2023 18:39

I am actually going to have to leave this site for the day. Some of the attitudes on here towards women are fucked.

finallyitshapoen · 29/08/2023 18:42

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finallyitshapoen · 29/08/2023 18:44

@NameChangeEmbarressed it's ending the life of a healthy pregnancy.

annahay · 29/08/2023 18:44

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I've had miscarriages so definitely no disconnect for me. I also respect a woman's right to body autonomy.

SouthLondonMum22 · 29/08/2023 18:48

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An actual person can survive on their own without a host.
An actual person is called a person, not a foetus.
An actual person has rights, a foetus before 24 weeks has none.

Just some of the many differences.