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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

So is formula milk UPF?

415 replies

bumgripes · 28/08/2023 10:07

It is, right? I mean, the ingredients list certainly is. And it’s listed on the BBC website as an UPF.

Going to be interested to see if this influences the BF/FF debate now that it looks like awareness of UPF is about to skyrocket. Does it even matter when they’re only on it for about a year? Does that fact that it’s an UPF actually add any info to the pre-existing evidence on BF/FF?

OP posts:
herewegoroundthebastardbush · 28/08/2023 14:14

AnneAnon · 28/08/2023 14:02

Your life must be quite small.

Show quote history

What things have you done that you're proud of I wonder?

Goingcrazyimsure · 28/08/2023 14:18

Yes it is. There is an interesting section on it in Ultra Processed People by Dr. Chris Van Tullekan - there is no guilt tripping involved in knowing what formula actually is. It's obviously not as good for a baby as breast milk but if someone actually can't feed their child then they shouldn't feel bad! In that case it needs to be seen as a medical necessity! There obviously needs to be significantly more breastfeeding support offered as what is there at the moment is pitiful and I suspect lots of people who believe they couldn't do it were just not given the support they needed.

The vast majority of stuff sold in supermarkets is UPF and the children in this country are full of it ...

People just need to be informed and can then make their own decisions about how they feed themselves and their family. Pretending it's not UPF to stop people feeling guilty is nonsense.

Goingcrazyimsure · 28/08/2023 14:19

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 28/08/2023 14:12

I think if formula was treated as medicine this argument would be less fraught. Breast milk is the normative food for human babies. For various reasons, not all babies get breast milk and so to prevent them becoming ill they need medicine (formula). UPF is about food. Formula isn't really a food, it's a medicine, as in without it, babies who don't get breastmilk would be malnourished and ill.

I also think if this was how it was treated (prescribed by a doctor at a controlled and affordable price) it would be better for mothers who FF too - as at the moment they are being ripped off by companies who make it and market it.

But this view is very unpopular, because people are simultaneously very unhappy talking about FF as a choice they are actively making ("my baby would have died without formula!" is always the rebuttal to any questioning of the formula industry or the product itself) but simultaneously very reluctant to talk about formula as a medicine they feed their baby to counter the effects of a nutritional deficit.

Essentially the only thing that will satisfy the demands of some posters is for there to be no more mention of breastfeeding and breastmilk ever made, and certainly no scrutiny of formula and the formula industry, because anything that treats formula as anything other than simultaneously a complete essential AND the best possible choice is upsetting for mothers who use it.

The worst thing about this approach is that the people who actually USE formula, i e. The customer base th formula industry has to answer to if it wants to make a profit, is entirely passive to it and resists any attempt to demand better/more for formula fed babies from those companies because criticism of the industry and the product attacks their own egos so they have to pretend to themselves it's already perfect.

👍

Original poster
bumgripes · 28/08/2023 14:20

@herewegoroundthebastardbush this is a great comment, thank you

OP posts:
Goingcrazyimsure · 28/08/2023 14:21

bumgripes · 28/08/2023 13:59

@Dasisr Thanks for asking. I think it would influence my decision on feeding choice, yes. Maybe not rationally, but it would. Obviously I bf anyway but it was a real struggle the first weeks and I kept a few bottles of ready made formula in the house so I knew I had an out. When I read the ingredients list I did find it a bit gross and that did provide a bit of an additional spur not to move to mixed feeding. It might be worth noting that I was fed almost exclusively on UPF (beige oven food, processed ham, white bread, ribena and Frosties) until the age of 7 and struggle massively with binge eating and obesity as an adult. So avoiding that for my DC is one of the big bees in my parenting bonnet.

I don’t have any qualms about calpol and vitamins, they are small amounts and not used or marketed as food.

I think that is totally rational 😊

Parker231 · 28/08/2023 14:21

TheBarbieEffect · 28/08/2023 11:45

Most mums that formula feed do so because they don’t want to breastfeed. Not because they can’t.

It’s good this information is getting out there. If you can’t then fair enough, but if you can but choose not to you should know the risks.

Show quote history

I positively chose to use formula from day one. How you feed your baby is only a tiny part of what they will eat as toddlers, children, teenagers etc. At some point all children will have processed and junk food- everything in moderation including the amazing product of baby formula.

sheworemellowyellow · 28/08/2023 14:22

“All UPF = bad; formula = a UPF; formula is bad” is tabloid thinking and tabloid reasoning.

This isn’t a helpful or relevant discussion.

Goingcrazyimsure · 28/08/2023 14:23

DrJump · 28/08/2023 11:32

It is but I think it is not reasonable to place concern for that on mother's. The systems around mother's make actually exclusive breastfeeding for 6 months then 12 + months almost impossible. Significant resources and legislative changes are needed.

Why is it almost impossible?

Jamtartforme · 28/08/2023 14:23

I also think if this was how it was treated (prescribed by a doctor at a controlled and affordable price) it would be better for mothers who FF too

2 week old baby, it’s the middle of the night, mum is taken ill (let’s say her C section scar is infected, or she has appendicitis and needs surgery). She cannot feed baby for hours, maybe a day or two. Are you seriously saying among the stress, the baby needs to be taken to see an emergency doctor (and we know how long the 111 queue can be) so formula can be prescribed before they can eat?

Goingcrazyimsure · 28/08/2023 14:25

Merryoldgoat · 28/08/2023 11:44

Exactly. This is a faux innocent thread designed to guilt trip new mums. The list infers it’s a UPF, the BBC say it is, so she knows the answer.

Agree with this 100%

What so no discussion allowed?

WeWereInParis · 28/08/2023 14:26

People can only make an informed decision if they have the information. Let's not blame facts for being inconvenient.

I agree. It is a UPF, and there's no point going "shush don't tell the mums! It will only upset them"

I actually think it's not helpful to only look at things in terms of UPF/not UPF. But that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be mentioned. And I combi fed one of my daughters from about 7 months so I've nothing against formula.

However, I also don't think the OP is entirely in good faith.

ErrolTheDragon · 28/08/2023 14:28

Does anyone really think that the answer to the OPs original question Does that fact that it’s an UPF actually add any info to the pre-existing evidence on BF/FF? is yes? If so, what exactly does this fact add?

Original poster
bumgripes · 28/08/2023 14:28

@SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius that sounds rotten, I’m sorry you went through that 🌹 . So weird how these irrational instincts can linger even when they don’t make sense.

and yes, rest assured I have even less respect for the “formula is poison!!!” people than I do for the “the only reason you would mention potential downsides of formula is to abuse other women!!!” people 😂

OP posts:
PandaPacer · 28/08/2023 14:30

It is. In the same way the liquid nutrition from a bag that kept my son my 10 year old son alive when he had cancer was.

There's no time for the luxury of UPF / non-UPF when it's the only thing to sustain life!

Scottishskifun · 28/08/2023 14:33

I mean of course it have you read the ingredients list....its hardly come direct from a cow with added vitamins and increased protein levels now has it?! You would have to be pretty stupid to think it hadn't been processed either in it's dried form or premade bottles!

It doesn't retract from the fact that its the safe alternative to breastmilk and for whatever reason women choose to give it.
No mother needs to be made to feel guilty about feeding a baby safely for christ sake and I say this a bf mother of 2 with extended bf!

Yes there should be more support in rl for mothers who choose to bf but that choice isn't for every mother and for some they have no choice.

Twizbe · 28/08/2023 14:34

@ErrolTheDragon good question. Really all it adds is information. Information that parents can use to make decisions for their families. For some people it won’t be high on their lists of concerns, for others it will.

It’s a bit like the fact that formula isn’t vegan. No issue if you’re not vegan / don’t want to raise your children vegan. If you are / do then it’s an important bit of information.

Cowlover89 · 28/08/2023 14:35

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 28/08/2023 14:14

What things have you done that you're proud of I wonder?

Show quote history

Nout probably.

BumbleNova · 28/08/2023 14:42

Formula in many ways is the ultimate UPF. The appalling damage the formula milk companies have committed in developing countries is just breathtaking - persuading vulnerable women it was necessary/ better than breastmilk is shocking. Badly made formula with unsafe water is huge cause of infant mortality.

GreyGrid · 28/08/2023 14:43

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 28/08/2023 14:12

I think if formula was treated as medicine this argument would be less fraught. Breast milk is the normative food for human babies. For various reasons, not all babies get breast milk and so to prevent them becoming ill they need medicine (formula). UPF is about food. Formula isn't really a food, it's a medicine, as in without it, babies who don't get breastmilk would be malnourished and ill.

I also think if this was how it was treated (prescribed by a doctor at a controlled and affordable price) it would be better for mothers who FF too - as at the moment they are being ripped off by companies who make it and market it.

But this view is very unpopular, because people are simultaneously very unhappy talking about FF as a choice they are actively making ("my baby would have died without formula!" is always the rebuttal to any questioning of the formula industry or the product itself) but simultaneously very reluctant to talk about formula as a medicine they feed their baby to counter the effects of a nutritional deficit.

Essentially the only thing that will satisfy the demands of some posters is for there to be no more mention of breastfeeding and breastmilk ever made, and certainly no scrutiny of formula and the formula industry, because anything that treats formula as anything other than simultaneously a complete essential AND the best possible choice is upsetting for mothers who use it.

The worst thing about this approach is that the people who actually USE formula, i e. The customer base th formula industry has to answer to if it wants to make a profit, is entirely passive to it and resists any attempt to demand better/more for formula fed babies from those companies because criticism of the industry and the product attacks their own egos so they have to pretend to themselves it's already perfect.

This is really interesting, thank you. I had to FF mine when BF didn't work (despite lots of support). Thinking of FF as something medical would have lessened my guilt. I can't speak for any other FF mother, of course.

Original poster
bumgripes · 28/08/2023 14:50

@Jamtartforme great point about logistics. Would also add a massive burden to an already failing health service. And of course the pharmaceutical industry is not exactly an ethical and transparent wonderland! (Bad Pharma by Ben Goldacre still seminal text on this). I still think it’s a really interesting framing though.

OP posts:
SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 28/08/2023 14:51

AnneAnon · 28/08/2023 14:02

Your life must be quite small.

Show quote history

I think this is the flip side of what I was describing, about how emotive and personal it feels to feed your children. I felt like a total failure for not being able to breastfeed, and @Cowlover89 feels it is one of her proudest achievements.

Nourishing your child is such a central and important thing, it is no surprise to me that it brings up very intense feelings.

Original poster
bumgripes · 28/08/2023 14:52

@sheworemellowyellow it’s a simple question, simply framed. Many of the responses have also been simple (berating), but many have not. I’ve found it a very interesting and useful discussion.

OP posts:
Cowlover89 · 28/08/2023 14:52

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 28/08/2023 14:51

I think this is the flip side of what I was describing, about how emotive and personal it feels to feed your children. I felt like a total failure for not being able to breastfeed, and @Cowlover89 feels it is one of her proudest achievements.

Nourishing your child is such a central and important thing, it is no surprise to me that it brings up very intense feelings.

Show quote history

You're not a failure. X

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 28/08/2023 14:54

Thank you @Cowlover89 and @bumgripes - I am getting better at silencing that nasty voice at the back of my mind.

Twizbe · 28/08/2023 14:56

If you speak to a lot of people who work in breastfeeding education and support, the ideal would be a ‘national’ formula that is unbranded and sold at cost price.

Prescription formula for those who need it and cheap for those who want it.

There are issues though with prescription formula as well though. There’s lots of money changing hands to ensure certain formulas are prescribed.