Can't we just have cameras in school and hospitals?

[melon234]

Thinking about the Letby case more, wouldn't it make sense on certain wards to have 24h security cameras rolling? If people are doing their job properly there will be no concern. But if there was some sort of major issue like what happened in the letby hospital it would be used with notes to put together a picture of what happened. Children's wards and neonatal wards should have cameras on the beds/cots all the time.

I'm not looking to blame people for minor mishaps but more to get to the bottom of potentially "life ruining" events.

I think the same for schools. It would protect teachers mainly. There would be no word of a student against a teachers. Schools have become increasingly violent.

I 100% agree with you. Especially in schools, it would stop a lot of "he said she said".

Our primary school has LOADS of CCTV blackspots. The playgrounds fairly well covered but the corridors aren't. A child in my sons class had his locker raided and his new coat and lunchbox nicked and they didn't have CCTV to find the culprit. I think classrooms need CCTV too...

I have spent way too much time on peadiatric wards over the years with DS. The recent news has really thrown me in many ways.

HOWEVER responses need to be proportionate. Lessons undoubtedly need to be learnt, primarily from the response to “whistleblowing” angle but we need to remember that things like this are very very rare.

To basically remove any right to dignity even from “just” children and opening up to the other much bigger risks that come from such monitoring is no where near proportionate.

Ah I see. This was a more creative way to start another anti NHS thread.

Grow up.

@RoomOfRequirement I'm not anti nhs at all. I anti to what the government have done to funding. I am anti to CEOs getting paid insane amounts whilst nurses gather round a shared broken computer.

This.As a professional you should not expect to be monitored 24 hours a day.

Because you don't want to pay enough taxes and the government doesn't want to spend the money?

Though of course if your real reason for starting this thread was safetly, and not NHS worker bashing (we know your other usernames 🙄) we should have no single rooms. Everyone sound be able to see and watch everything, right? Single rooms have more more options for causing harm. If that was your genuine thread starting reason.

@RedHelenB should we turn off the cctv in shops too? Or do they not count as they are not "professionals".

There's an air BnB across the street from us, it has an outdoor pool, with six CCTV cameras pointing at the pool, and sunbathing area. The owner lives elsewhere, is never in contact with the guests, and is a really creepy guy. I'm amazed anyone would stay at the place, but no-one seems remotely bothered by it.

Why is that an argument to give patients even less privacy?

I partially agree. I used to do lots of “on call” sessions in school, collecting pupils who were disrupting learning. I’ve repeatedly asked for a body cam like they wear in Sainsburys. For lots of reasons… to show parents quite how disruptive their children are at times, to identify those vandalising communal areas and for my own security. You are often dealing with very emotionally charged situations and to have a record is important for everyone involved.

@JaneTheVirgin not sure who you think I am but I mainly post on Mumsnet about children's behaviour, food, funny threads, dieting, the Tory government etc.

I think you might be confusing me.

I think I possibly have a slightly different view to most as I have a relative that is a dr and I think that person deserves better treatment on the whole. More money etc.

Main issue with this scenario is going to be retention of data.

Most footage in somewhere like a hospital will only be kept for a short amount of time unless it is specifically archived.

In the Letby case, as nobody susoected a crime was happening until after the event it is likely the data will have been deleted.

If you wanted to store the video, at a ward-bay level in an average size hospital for 3 years you'd probably need 1—2 exabytes of storage - cost £4-8m, plus the cost of all the cameras... And it still wouldn't have prevented like Letby, although may have aided after the fact in her conviction.

Sadly, if someone is intent on hurting a baby in this situation, they would find a way around cameras. I think it would be very difficult to have cameras set up in such a way that absolutely everything is captured in very high definition so that you can see exactly what is being administered/done.

You can just record yourself...

You don't even need to tell anyone.

Guidelines on patients recording

This. You view the CCTV and see Lucy Letby squirting something down the NGT. She says it was water, necessary to keep the tube patent. Can you prove beyond reasonable doubt, from the CCTV footage filmed from the end of the bed, that it was actually air in the syringe and not water? I doubt it.

This!

We need this enquiry to be a statutory one and the manager who said that she'd take responsibility to be criminally charged, even if this means creating new laws around corporate manslaughter. We need a dicking of pensions, not just for this case but for Police and SW's. Children die when they don't do their jobs properly and they should be held as responsible as a building site manager etc.

To those saying we should have CCTV in every classroom - are you aware that current funding doesn't even stretch to having enough books or glue sticks for each classroom?

So you think a CCTV camera would have picked up that letby was giving air down the feeding tube rather than milk? Someone would have to be looking for that specific MO to pick up that detail from a camera. Let's say 30 babies on a NICU ward at a time, some being fed hourly, you want every feed observing? Then what about every IV medication given? You want that observing closely too? Who's saying what the camera is seeing in the syringe is actually what's in there when it was drawn up? How does a camera see it's not just full of air? If they did see, you think the person who is watching the cameras could stop it in time? Or are you actually only wanting it recorded to "deter" bad people from doing things to harm babies and children? If that's the case how about being a little less short sited and thinking about how one bad apple doesn't make every single neonatal/paediatric nurse and doctor a suspect?
Do you want filmed doing your job OP?
Would you want to be filmed sat next to your child's incubator trying painstakingly to hand express vital breast milk? It's a private area for the parent AND the baby. These little people have just the same right to privacy as anyone else, and I can assure you that her case is a bad apple, everyone else has these babies best interests at heart, so much deeper that I think you can fathom as an outsider

Imagine when a person is found to have uploaded thousands of images and footage from the cameras for perverts to wank over.

Or imagine the cost (and environmental impact) of storing data that represents somewhere around 90Gb of data per camera every month. Every camera in every room, every ward, every treatment area, every corner of every corridor, every stairwell, every toilet, sluice room, office, gap between two doors, every single day for over ten years.

The sheer scale of data that would need to be stored for years would require either the equivalent of defence systems data systems, or, as would be more likely when this is such a high cost, somebody coming up with the idea to build it on a P2P system - which then means it's dependent upon every single computer holding data to remain absolutely secure.

Or the server/network is hacked because it contains intimate images of vulnerable people and infants, for shits and giggles, for extortion.

It's technologically, financially and ethically unfeasible. But maybe when you're old and vulnerable, it'll be possible for somebody to watch and laugh you undergoing care at end of life or put it into training aids as an example of what people of the mid 21st century looked like.

Bodycams for teachers would be good in some circumstances. Like the ones the police use. Parents would be shocked at how some children speak to their teachers!

I'd be slightly happier if there were two people doing jobs on neonatal ward so they can check each other and prevent mistakes/deliberate actions. But that will never happen die to cost.

There has to be at least two people there, just to check drugs if nothing else. Neonates and picu have large nursing teams.

you have to have some kind of license to install CCTV cameras, and I know there’s quite a limit on them so city centres, for example would have more than an average school /hospital

How disgusting and embarrassing pinching the teachers purse.

What happened to the Parent?

Currently in children’s ward with my dd and I would hate there to be cameras here watching her 24/7. Who knows who would be watching children getting changed/washed/examined. Sounds like a horrible idea children have every right to privacy too.

Schools are different although my dc school only have cctv at the entrances, I would have less objection to more widespread monitoring depending on how the data was handled.