Page 6 | Karen advert

IncognitoMam · 2023-08-26T06:29:14+00:00

This shouldn't be allowed surely? Who comes up with this shit? I'm not called Karen but I know Karen's that hate their name now because of the way it's used.

GoFaster83 · 26/08/2023 10:12

I do agree the word isn't appropriate and I don't use it myself. But I have been on the receiving end of that sort of behaviour and it's very real. Its not about criticising assertive women. Its about identifying bullying, rude and inappropriate people (mena and women). I'm no misogynistic for calling it out this type of behaviour when I see it or experience it. Sorry OP I know this wasn't the point of your post! It just drives me mad that some people immediately jump to defend the awful behaviour of some people. We just need a better word to label it.

SomeCatFromJapan · 26/08/2023 10:13

@DeeCee77 so what's the equivalent word for racist white men, the statistically actually dangerous ones within the white population grouping?

Whatswhatwhichiswhich · 26/08/2023 10:13

I avoid any company that remotely jokes about it. Don’t give a shit what the term originally meant nor it’s original connotations, I do give a shit that my friends get the flack for having that name though.

WhenIWasAFieldMyself · 26/08/2023 10:14

GoFaster83 · 26/08/2023 10:02

The absolute insistence of some people to call any criticism of women's behaviour as misogyny is outrageous. No. Some women behave like shite bags. When I worked in retail as a youth some awful women made me cry with their bullying behaviour. I don't particularly like calling it "karen" and some men are just as bad. But no. Its not misogyny. It's a crap and ill thought out word that describes very real and unacceptable behaviour.

Some women do bully. Yes.

Nobody on this thread (just reread) has "called any criticism of women's behaviour" misogyny.

People have said that calling women "Karen" if they speak out to defend themselves/legitimately complain about something morally, institutionally etc wrong is misogyny.

Which it is. Because it's only ever directed at women.

That you think this somehow equates to not being allowed to call out workplace bullying shows a lack of comprehension.

DeeCee77 · 26/08/2023 10:15

Cannot believe a post of mine showing an image of Elizabeth Eckford, a 15 year old black girl who was chased by a group of racist white american women, Karens, who did not want their children having to share a classroom with a non white person, was removed.

What is this Florida? History is not offensive (or it shouldn't be).

Anyone that knows the meaning of the term Karen, a racist white american woman who has historically inflicted terror on non white people by weaponising her white privilege, would never trivialise it or missappopriate it. Those that dont know this history its understandable to misuse it, those who do know its history theres no excuse.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 26/08/2023 10:16

GoFaster83 · 26/08/2023 10:12

I do agree the word isn't appropriate and I don't use it myself. But I have been on the receiving end of that sort of behaviour and it's very real. Its not about criticising assertive women. Its about identifying bullying, rude and inappropriate people (mena and women). I'm no misogynistic for calling it out this type of behaviour when I see it or experience it. Sorry OP I know this wasn't the point of your post! It just drives me mad that some people immediately jump to defend the awful behaviour of some people. We just need a better word to label it.

of course it’s misogynistic to use a gendered insult to call it out.
Use words that describe the behaviour or use a non gendered insult. That way you can call out the behaviour without buying into misogyny. Not hard.

WhenIWasAFieldMyself · 26/08/2023 10:17

GoFaster83 · 26/08/2023 10:12

I do agree the word isn't appropriate and I don't use it myself. But I have been on the receiving end of that sort of behaviour and it's very real. Its not about criticising assertive women. Its about identifying bullying, rude and inappropriate people (mena and women). I'm no misogynistic for calling it out this type of behaviour when I see it or experience it. Sorry OP I know this wasn't the point of your post! It just drives me mad that some people immediately jump to defend the awful behaviour of some people. We just need a better word to label it.

Receiving end of what sort of behaviour? You're a black American who has been subjected to racist slurs? Or a woman who has been silenced for having an opinion?

Your posts are very confusing and it seems you don't really understand the argument.

Lndnmummy · 26/08/2023 10:17

DeeCee77 · 26/08/2023 08:24

Where are they from? If they are not from the US that term doesn't apply to them.

Karen is just the latest term used by African Americans to refer to a meddlesome white woman from the US who uses her white privilege, sometimes to deadly consequences. US history is littered with white women terrorizing non white people by accusing them of something, which is followed by the white man then taking action. Emmett Till is probably the most famous example;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till

"Emmett Till was an African American boy who was abducted, tortured, and lynched in Mississippi 1955 at the age of 14, after being accused of offending a white woman, Carolyn Bryant, in her family's grocery store."

Good article in the New York Times on this; How White Women Use Themselves as Instruments of Terror;

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/27/opinion/racism-white-women.html

"We often like to make white supremacy a testosterone-fueled masculine expression, but it is just as likely to wear heels as a hood. Indeed, untold numbers of lynchings were executed because white women had claimed that a black man raped, assaulted, talked to or glanced at them. The Tulsa race massacre, the destruction of Black Wall Street, was spurred by an incident between a white female elevator operator and a black man. As the Oklahoma Historical Society points out, the most common explanation is that he stepped on her toe. As many as 300 people were killed because of it. The torture and murder of 14-year-old Emmett Till in 1955, a lynching actually, occurred because a white woman said that he "grabbed her and was menacing and sexually crude toward her". This practice, this exercise in racial extremism has been dragged into the modern era through the weaponizing of 9-1-1, often by white women, to invoke the power and force of the police who they are fully aware are hostile to black men. This was again evident when a white woman in New York's Central Park told a black man, a bird-watcher, that she was going to call the police and tell them that he was threatening her life."

Look at the reaction to the 1915 film The Birth of a Nation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation#Audience_reaction

Your friends need to stop attaching a label that doesn't belong to them, nor feeling annoyed over their ignorance, and also educate themselves on the misery and terror inflicted on a group of people.

Show quote history

Excellent post.

Lndnmummy · 26/08/2023 10:18

SomeCatFromJapan · 26/08/2023 10:13

@DeeCee77 so what's the equivalent word for racist white men, the statistically actually dangerous ones within the white population grouping?

John

GoFaster83 · 26/08/2023 10:19

@MorrisZapp I think you've hit the nail on the head! The word is used to describe such a lot of unkind, entitled and bullying behaviours that many people use it without even thinking about where it came from or thinking about it being a gendered insult. Like I say, I'd never use it myself but I know exactly what most people mean when they use that word. And of course there are people who will use it to put women down too.

SomeCatFromJapan · 26/08/2023 10:19

@Lndnmummy never heard of it before in my life in that context. Unlike Karen, oddly enough.

W0tnow · 26/08/2023 10:20

I think most of us can understand that the insult had morphed into a word for a gobby middle aged woman. Ie, a woman who dares to voice her displeasure at something.

Sadie87 · 26/08/2023 10:20

DeeCee77 · 26/08/2023 08:44

The Karen (or whatever the previous term was used by oppressed non white people back in 18th century america) has always been there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oney_Judge

"Oney Judge was a biracial slave who was owned by the Washington family, first at the family's plantation at Mount Vernon and later, after George Washington became president, at the President's House in Philadelphia, then the nation's capital city. In her early twenties, she absconded, becoming a fugitive slave, after learning that Martha Washington had intended to transfer ownership of her to her granddaughter, known to have a horrible temper."

The image below is the fugitive slave advertisement that the tyrant george washington, the owner of over 600 slaves (human beings), placed in a newspaper in an effort to catch Judge and have her return to him, her master.

I think one would have to be quite ignorant to not have at least some understanding of the harrowing persecution of black men by white women and I’m not sure the pasting of awful accounts is necessary for the majority. I appreciate we all need to understand this however so perhaps that is your intention.

But, respectfully, Karen is absolutely a term used in the UK, infiltrating down to children even, and it’s definitely evolved. I have heard it used by otherwise intelligent people my age but mostly the teenage pupils I teach. Most recently, it was used by a male pupil as an insult directed at a female pupil who was articulate (and polite, I’ll add) in challenging said male pupil’s archaic views about gender roles in a discussion about a text, which then escalated.

We cannot deny this is the case without being part of the problem of internalised misogyny.

GoFaster83 · 26/08/2023 10:20

Also. It's a shite meme. Who gave that the gp ahead? Although we're all talking about it so maybe they're actually a genius....😂(nope)

RufustheFactualReindeer · 26/08/2023 10:21

PhillyJoe · 26/08/2023 09:34

The issue is the appropriation and generalization of the term from its original meaning to being generally misogynistic. This both silences the American black community who originated it AND now silences women in general. The problem is the (mostly) white (mostly) men who have co-opted it transforming it from a way to name oppression to a tool of oppression.

This

exactly right

Whatswhatwhichiswhich · 26/08/2023 10:21

@SomeCatFromJapan Kyle is occasionally used around here to describe a highly strung guy but I’m hoping it doesn’t catch on, it’s one of my favourite male names!

AnObserverInThisDarkWorld · 26/08/2023 10:21

"Karen" doesn't refer to an assertive woman. It refers specifically to the kind of woman, or man "male Karens", who screams at employees for no reason, who asks to see the manager because they don't like the answer they've given even though it's correct, who try to get people fired for stupid shit, who scream at non-employees they think work some where...it's not about any woman who tries to speak up

KimberleyClark · 26/08/2023 10:22

DeeCee77 · 26/08/2023 10:15

Cannot believe a post of mine showing an image of Elizabeth Eckford, a 15 year old black girl who was chased by a group of racist white american women, Karens, who did not want their children having to share a classroom with a non white person, was removed.

What is this Florida? History is not offensive (or it shouldn't be).

Anyone that knows the meaning of the term Karen, a racist white american woman who has historically inflicted terror on non white people by weaponising her white privilege, would never trivialise it or missappopriate it. Those that dont know this history its understandable to misuse it, those who do know its history theres no excuse.

Edited

If you mean your post at 8.58 on the first page of this thread, it’s still there.

Humidititties · 26/08/2023 10:23

AnObserverInThisDarkWorld · 26/08/2023 10:21

"Karen" doesn't refer to an assertive woman. It refers specifically to the kind of woman, or man "male Karens", who screams at employees for no reason, who asks to see the manager because they don't like the answer they've given even though it's correct, who try to get people fired for stupid shit, who scream at non-employees they think work some where...it's not about any woman who tries to speak up

You couldn't be more wrong

LadyLapsang · 26/08/2023 10:23

It’s sexist, racist and ageist. I know some very nice Karens.

SomeCatFromJapan · 26/08/2023 10:24

So let me get this straight, a middle-aged woman who is called Karen, or is called "a Karen" as a slur to shut her up, is somehow perpetuating racism and committing cultural appropriation rather than being a victim of ageism and misogyny?
Got it.

KajsaKavat · 26/08/2023 10:24

I hate how women use Karen as a slut against other women and don’t see that they are fighting on the side of the patriarchy

IHateWasps · 26/08/2023 10:25

Karen" doesn't refer to an assertive woman. It refers specifically to the kind of woman, or man "male Karens", who screams at employees for no reason, who asks to see the manager because they don't like the answer they've given even though it's correct, who try to get people fired for stupid shit, who scream at non-employees they think work some where...it's not about any woman who tries to speak up

That explains why I regularly see women being called a Karen for daring to have an opinion about anything on Twitter,Reddit, Youtube etc.

AlisonDonut · 26/08/2023 10:25

DeeCee77 · 26/08/2023 10:15

Cannot believe a post of mine showing an image of Elizabeth Eckford, a 15 year old black girl who was chased by a group of racist white american women, Karens, who did not want their children having to share a classroom with a non white person, was removed.

What is this Florida? History is not offensive (or it shouldn't be).

Anyone that knows the meaning of the term Karen, a racist white american woman who has historically inflicted terror on non white people by weaponising her white privilege, would never trivialise it or missappopriate it. Those that dont know this history its understandable to misuse it, those who do know its history theres no excuse.

Edited

Are you saying that the use of this in this advert is good, or bad?

Lifeinlists · 26/08/2023 10:25

AnObserverInThisDarkWorld · 26/08/2023 10:21

"Karen" doesn't refer to an assertive woman. It refers specifically to the kind of woman, or man "male Karens", who screams at employees for no reason, who asks to see the manager because they don't like the answer they've given even though it's correct, who try to get people fired for stupid shit, who scream at non-employees they think work some where...it's not about any woman who tries to speak up

No it doesn't and you've had countless, patient explanations and examples in this thread to illustrate how casually it is now used against women. Women, not men.

You are wilfully adding to the problem.