Page 16 | Karen advert

IncognitoMam · 2023-08-26T06:29:14+00:00

This shouldn't be allowed surely? Who comes up with this shit? I'm not called Karen but I know Karen's that hate their name now because of the way it's used.

Sadie87 · 26/08/2023 14:23

supersop60 · 26/08/2023 11:07

Sorry, I haven't RTWT.
I thought that Karen was used to describe middle aged women who are acting unreasonably.
It's not about being assertive with a legitimate complaint.
A Karen IME is one who screams and shouts, is rude and insulting, and demanding rights that aren't appropriate or legitimate.

It is used to describe reasonable women who stand their ground too though in my experience.

Eg A perfectly reasonable woman with a toddler and a newborn, politely saying, “Excuse me but are you aware you just parked in the last parent and child parking space, but you have no children in your car?”

It’s a trendy form of being told to “Calm down luv” when you call out BS in a perfectly measured tone.

StoatofDisarray · 26/08/2023 14:30

Tara24 · 26/08/2023 08:49

@DeeCee77 . The use of 'Karen' now has a different use here in the UK. It's used as a derogatory term to describe a middle aged woman who disagrees or complains about a service being provided.

I agree with you OP.

Exactly. Times have changed and it's now a word used to belittle any middle aged white woman. A young white woman called me a Karen a couple of weld ago when the bus jolted and I accidentally trod on her foot. Language evolves and so has the meaning and use of Karen, at least in the UK.

MNHQ

ImaniMumsnet · 26/08/2023 14:38

Hi everyone,

Please can we keep the discussion civil please?

Thanks!

Obtula · 26/08/2023 14:39

It was always used to describe all women that men feel pissed off with. It was briefly claimed to be about white women specifically - I'm not sure why, possibly so that men could say that slagging off women was actually anti-racism work.

Mustardseed86 · 26/08/2023 14:41

I don't know if the name Karen has a different social class associated with it in the US, but here it's equally or more likely to be the person behind the counter who is called Karen as the one asking to 'see the manager'. I really don't like it as every Karen I know is lovely and it's so derogatory and dismissive. I get the specific contexts it might be used but it's more often thrown out in a misogynistic, ageist context IMO.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/08/2023 14:42

The term 'Karen' originated from white men on Reddit and it was always meant to be a misogynistic attack on white women. Not sure why all the revisionist history on this thread.

Because it always happens. I can't even be bothered. People just want a cast iron excuse for their misogyny.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/08/2023 14:43

MasterGaveDobbyASock · 26/08/2023 11:12

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.insider.com/karen-meme-origin-the-history-of-calling-women-karen-white-2020-5%3famp

The origins of Karen are misogynstic. A wise mumsnetter with computer expertise did a search before and found that the earliest mentions were of a divorced white woman taking the kids, not of racism.

And there's no social justice for a white male calling his teacher a Karen because she asked him to do his homework. Or a man on the internet calling a woman Karen in a heated debate about a non racial subject.

Just common garden misogyny. Anyone defending it needs to 'educate themselves' rather than shitting virtue signalling articles which have no relevance in the context given.

This.

WolfFoxHare · 26/08/2023 14:43

Lndnmummy · 26/08/2023 14:17

Mirror mirror on the wall, tell me who is the most ignorant of all.....

Show quote history

Yes, that’s about the size of it. Well done for acknowledging your problematic behaviour on this thread though, it’s nice to see you’re growing. 👍

kazz77 · 26/08/2023 14:43

Imagine that your name is actually Karen

You already struggle with anxiety and depression so speaking to people especially in public was already difficult… Now you actively avoid anywhere or anything where you may have to give your name (Starbucks for example - yes you can give a false name but when ordering itself is such an ordeal that just adds a layer that’s too much for you so you just avoid) you don’t complain even when justified in fear on being Karen by name and nature

It is widely enough known/used/and in the real world enough that people do make comments when you say your name, mostly sympathetic, poor you, oh that’s an unfortunate name, if only your parents had known the future etc, sometimes things like oh a real life Karen, are you really like that.

You see it everywhere online , people talking about it, adverts such as this and you get into a spiral of feeling worse and worse

But that’s apparently okay because as many people will tell you, they don’t mean you, they don’t mean people actually called Karen, you’re missing the point, you’re stupid to be upset about it.

Sure many real Karen’s will laugh it off, some of those won’t care at all, some of them will laugh just because they feel they should even though it hurts inside but I won’t be the only one for whom it has a real negative, hurtful effect on a near daily basis

Change your name is a solution often offered, often with an ‘at least you can do that, people can’t change their skin colour’ but again for many people it’s still not an easy thing to just do and has a feeling of losing your identity

regardless of its background, how it came about, why it’s used, whether it’s use has changed, or if it’s used to shut down women people rarely care that there are actual, nice, individual people who are having their lives made even more miserable by it and who because of their own imperfections can’t just brush it off or ignore It

ArabeIIaScott · 26/08/2023 14:43

If we're going to talk about race, how about considering the outcomes for black women in the UK who are pregnant.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/mar/20/conference-highlights-racial-disparity-in-uk-maternal-healthcare

'... black women not being listened to by healthcare professionals was also a contributing factor.'

Given this is an advert that is encouraging HCPs to disparage women who complain, is using the term 'Karen' here actually going to help address the very real issues?

Or is it going to continue to contribute to a climate where sexism intersects with racism to worsen outcomes for black women, and to encourage labelling female patients who ask questions, or for a second opinion, or raise their voice in any way as 'problematic' and worthy of dismissal?

Conference highlights racial disparity in UK maternal healthcare

The Motherhood Group event hears that black women suffer effects of unconscious bias within system

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/mar/20/conference-highlights-racial-disparity-in-uk-maternal-healthcare

Obtula · 26/08/2023 14:52

Early Karen reference.

The song, from 2019, lampoons a man who can't understand why his own poor behaviour meant his ex "took the fucking kids". The type of man slagging women off in this way was already calling them Karen, hence the ex in this song is called Karen.

genius.com/Yung-nugget-shotgun-willy-and-yung-craka-she-took-the-kids-lyrics

Bettelucksecondtimearoundimherewaitingforu · 26/08/2023 14:55

This reply has been deleted

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SomeCatFromJapan · 26/08/2023 14:58

Racism apologists are an absolute, utter disgrace, in whatever form they exist. Just so you know.

Absolutely, we're in agreement there. I'm not sure how that is relevant to the thread.

Bettelucksecondtimearoundimherewaitingforu · 26/08/2023 14:58

This reply has been deleted

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Bettelucksecondtimearoundimherewaitingforu · 26/08/2023 14:59

You won't see it and why it is offensive. And that is the relevance to the thread.

Bettelucksecondtimearoundimherewaitingforu · 26/08/2023 15:07

kazz77 · 26/08/2023 14:43

Imagine that your name is actually Karen

You already struggle with anxiety and depression so speaking to people especially in public was already difficult… Now you actively avoid anywhere or anything where you may have to give your name (Starbucks for example - yes you can give a false name but when ordering itself is such an ordeal that just adds a layer that’s too much for you so you just avoid) you don’t complain even when justified in fear on being Karen by name and nature

It is widely enough known/used/and in the real world enough that people do make comments when you say your name, mostly sympathetic, poor you, oh that’s an unfortunate name, if only your parents had known the future etc, sometimes things like oh a real life Karen, are you really like that.

You see it everywhere online , people talking about it, adverts such as this and you get into a spiral of feeling worse and worse

But that’s apparently okay because as many people will tell you, they don’t mean you, they don’t mean people actually called Karen, you’re missing the point, you’re stupid to be upset about it.

Sure many real Karen’s will laugh it off, some of those won’t care at all, some of them will laugh just because they feel they should even though it hurts inside but I won’t be the only one for whom it has a real negative, hurtful effect on a near daily basis

Change your name is a solution often offered, often with an ‘at least you can do that, people can’t change their skin colour’ but again for many people it’s still not an easy thing to just do and has a feeling of losing your identity

regardless of its background, how it came about, why it’s used, whether it’s use has changed, or if it’s used to shut down women people rarely care that there are actual, nice, individual people who are having their lives made even more miserable by it and who because of their own imperfections can’t just brush it off or ignore It

Look, is ANYONE here or elsewhere REALLY arguing that is it wrong and upsetting if your name is 'Karen'?! Really!

However, I understood the argument to be about a 'Karen' used as a term to describe first and foremost racism and that remains its central reference of its origin which has now been turned (evolved) into other slurs including misogyny and ageism. Now at this point, replace, in your post, Karen being someone's real name and let's discuss.

Saschka · 26/08/2023 15:13

RisingSunn · 26/08/2023 14:06

But it’s not just “historic” is it.
The original term of Karen is the only definition I’ve known (I’m UK based too).

Mumsnet is the only place I’ve seen the term misappropriated.

Show quote history

It’s in the OP. Do you really think that advert was about ways of preventing racism? Or was it actually about shutting up a woman who is complaining about receiving poor healthcare?

Obtula · 26/08/2023 15:15

However, I understood the argument to be about a 'Karen' used as a term to describe first an foremost racism and that remains its central reference of its origin

Yes and that's inaccurate.

Bettelucksecondtimearoundimherewaitingforu · 26/08/2023 15:20

Obtula · 26/08/2023 15:15

However, I understood the argument to be about a 'Karen' used as a term to describe first an foremost racism and that remains its central reference of its origin

Yes and that's inaccurate.

What's the accepted origin? I did see someone upthread (won't be able to find it) mention something a bit obscure as its first reference, however, most of the public came to know it as such: racism and still refer to that as its origin.

so: 'However, I understood the argument to be about a 'Karen' used as a term to describe first and foremost racism and that remains its 'wildly accepted' central reference of its origin when it first came to public us/ attention and prominence.' Happy?

Bettelucksecondtimearoundimherewaitingforu · 26/08/2023 15:26

Saschka · 26/08/2023 15:13

It’s in the OP. Do you really think that advert was about ways of preventing racism? Or was it actually about shutting up a woman who is complaining about receiving poor healthcare?

Show quote history

Oh, and if only a 'Karen'- in whatever form- existed at Chester Countess hospital to 'deal' with Lucy and 'complain' about the ('criminally'- even) poor healthcare they were clearly receiving from Lucy resulting in murders and attempted murders. If only!

Oh, have a word with yourselves, some of you!

Don't IGNORE the widely accepted origin, and make it look like only the evolution of this horrible word matters. Please don't!

inamarina · 26/08/2023 15:26

LadyKenya · 26/08/2023 09:30

Why? You may have a problem with learning about the origin of the term "Karen", but I do not. Speak for yourself, and not "us". Thank you.

I hear you @DeeCee77 .

Show quote history

PP literally says in their post that they know the origins of the term Karen, and yet you chose to assume they ‘may have a problem with learning’ about it. How patronizing.

QueenMegan · 26/08/2023 15:26

Its so derogatory but the worst fucktards are women who use it... the sort that love having their back sides pinched.

BillaBongGirl · 26/08/2023 15:29

Pleasebeafleabite · 26/08/2023 08:38

Your friends need to stop attaching a label that doesn't belong to them, nor feeling annoyed over their ignorance, and also educate themselves on the misery and terror inflicted on a group of people

This is a UK site and posters are referring to its common usage in the UK as a derogatory term for assertive middle aged women. No need for the inevitable cut and paste lecture derail.

@DeeCee77
Is 100% correct, the only derail attempt here is the idea that Karen has a different usage in the U.K.

Obtula · 26/08/2023 15:30

No, it became widely popularised at the point it morphed into "speak to the manager Karen", in early 2020.

After that, you get the first bunch of Barbecue Becky memes. Karen speak to the manager/haircut memes were already completely mainstream by then. About six months after Barbecue Becky, there was the woman in the park with the dog, she got conflated with Karen by some culture wars commenters in the USA.

AntiSocial6DaysAWeek · 26/08/2023 15:35

DeeCee77 · 26/08/2023 08:24

Where are they from? If they are not from the US that term doesn't apply to them.

Karen is just the latest term used by African Americans to refer to a meddlesome white woman from the US who uses her white privilege, sometimes to deadly consequences. US history is littered with white women terrorizing non white people by accusing them of something, which is followed by the white man then taking action. Emmett Till is probably the most famous example;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till

"Emmett Till was an African American boy who was abducted, tortured, and lynched in Mississippi 1955 at the age of 14, after being accused of offending a white woman, Carolyn Bryant, in her family's grocery store."

Good article in the New York Times on this; How White Women Use Themselves as Instruments of Terror;

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/27/opinion/racism-white-women.html

"We often like to make white supremacy a testosterone-fueled masculine expression, but it is just as likely to wear heels as a hood. Indeed, untold numbers of lynchings were executed because white women had claimed that a black man raped, assaulted, talked to or glanced at them. The Tulsa race massacre, the destruction of Black Wall Street, was spurred by an incident between a white female elevator operator and a black man. As the Oklahoma Historical Society points out, the most common explanation is that he stepped on her toe. As many as 300 people were killed because of it. The torture and murder of 14-year-old Emmett Till in 1955, a lynching actually, occurred because a white woman said that he "grabbed her and was menacing and sexually crude toward her". This practice, this exercise in racial extremism has been dragged into the modern era through the weaponizing of 9-1-1, often by white women, to invoke the power and force of the police who they are fully aware are hostile to black men. This was again evident when a white woman in New York's Central Park told a black man, a bird-watcher, that she was going to call the police and tell them that he was threatening her life."

Look at the reaction to the 1915 film The Birth of a Nation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation#Audience_reaction

Your friends need to stop attaching a label that doesn't belong to them, nor feeling annoyed over their ignorance, and also educate themselves on the misery and terror inflicted on a group of people.

Show quote history

Think we may have spoken on another thread but Emmett Till is something that has always stuck with me.

II'd already read about it but watched the film with MY 14 year old son who is blonde haired and blue eyed and we spoke in depth about how/why that wouldn't have happened to him.

He was a baby. No words for what he went through.