Page 16 | U.K. first womb transplant

VestaTilley · 2023-08-23T09:29:57+00:00

The BBC has reported today that the first womb transplant has taken place in a hospital in England. A 40 year old woman donated her womb to her sister, hopefully enabling her to have children. AIBU to be concerned about a potential dystopian future where women’s reproductive organs are harvested like car parts? Journalists are treating this like it’s a positive, with few questions being asked about how the donor is recovering, how the foetus (if the recipient does conceive) will fare if the woman has to continue taking immuno suppressive drugs? Whether there is increased miscarriage risk? Transplants are supposed to be life saving, not about wish fulfilment. Apparently 10 brain dead women are being lined up for future donation! To me this all seems part of a bigger picture of surrogacy, synthetic embryo creation (reported earlier this year) and a drive to disassociate women from reproduction and the biology of our sex. Am I alone in being bothered by this? I wish journalists would look more at the bigger societal picture. Link here: [[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-66514270 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-66514270]]

WeWereInParis · 23/08/2023 14:37

My god child has a dead baby (kept alive on ventilator) kidney transplanted in him … should he be horrified at this when he grows up?

No, I don't think that's remotely the same as knowing that the woman who gave birth to you was dead before the start of pregnancy.

BlueBlubbaWhale · 23/08/2023 14:38

Can't get worked up about it. No different to donating your heart, liver, kidney, corneas or whatever to me. Everyone involved is consenting. The idea women will be kidnapped for their wombs is rather ott.

Sweetpeasaremadeforbees · 23/08/2023 14:39

Oh I definitely think that a uterine transplant into a man will happen somewhere in the world (probably somewhere like China with very little ethical oversight combined with few/no human rights) and the boundaries will be pushed to see if a baby could be carried to term. It would probably be like with the poor rats, with a woman surgically attached to provide all the necessary endocrine input.

Hopefully I'll be long dead before all that comes to pass.

Creepyrosemary · 23/08/2023 14:40

Tacocatgoatcheesepizza · 23/08/2023 10:34

I don’t really see this as different to any other organ transplant really. I follow a lady on Instagram in the US who had a uterus transplant and she is just full of gratitude and joy for the baby she is now carrying after being told at 14 she had no uterus and would never have children.

10 deceased brain dead women - again, it’s organ transplant which their families will have had to agree to. I am an organ donor as I’m sure most are now and would have not problem with my womb or uterus being used to help a woman who couldn’t have children.

Edited

This possibility is one of the reasons that I am not a donor.

The other reason is that I want to be able to refuse to donate to pedophiles, rapists and murderers.

SunsetBeauregarde · 23/08/2023 14:40

Judashascomeintosomemoney · 23/08/2023 14:27

Ereshkigalangcleg I admire your patience.
Do you ever feel like it’s Groundhog day?
‘It’s not happening now’
‘It won’t happen in future’
’Give me the source’
’No, not that source…’
’Women shut up’

five years later….

’Why didn’t you women say anything before?’

I’m extremely happy with the source provided, it’s shows exactly where the confusion has come from and that in fact, there is no plans to research transplanting wombs into men.

Im gender critical FYI, I’m just fed up if sensationalist bollocks like this completely stealing focus from the very real issues around women’s sports and spaces.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/08/2023 14:41

The quote is from the section of any study where you discuss further research, it is in no way a suggestion that anyone is researching or planning to research transplanting wombs into men.

They carried out a later survey, as I have said, of nearly 200 males hoping for a uterus transplant. That's what Posie Parker was asking about as someone had seen it going around trans Reddit. A GC male ally on Mumsnet participated. All here on this thread, for anyone interested to read:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3605548-Imperial-College-Womb-Transplant-Survey-Redux

After that, they produced a second paper.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33471119

Results:^ A total of 182 transgender women completed the questionnaire; most women (109 [60%]) were aged 20 to 29 years. Most did not have children prior to transitioning (167 [92%]) and expressed a desire to have children in the future (171 [94%]). In addition, most respondents agreed or strongly agreed that the ability to gestate and give birth to children (171 [94%]) and menstruate (161 [88%]) would enhance perceptions of their femininity. Similarly, high proportions strongly agreed or agreed that having a transplanted, functioning vagina would improve their sexual experience (163 [90%]), improve their quality of life (163 [90%]), and help them to feel like more of a woman (168 [92%]). Nearly all respondents (180 [99%]) believed that uterus transplant would lead to greater happiness in transgender women. More than three-quarters of the respondents (140 [77%]) strongly agreed or agreed that they would be more inclined to cryopreserve sperm if uterus transplant became a realistic option.^

Cynicaltheorist · 23/08/2023 14:43

I think it’s acceptable to assume people have differing levels of strength of feeling around this particular topic and the drive to have children is as individual as anything else. ‘Making your peace with it’ may well have worked for you, it was never an option for me.

So what did you do and where would you draw the line? Would you use a surrogate? Would you have a woman in a baby factory in the Ukraine have a baby for you?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/08/2023 14:43

Im gender critical FYI, I’m just fed up if sensationalist bollocks like this completely stealing focus from the very real issues around women’s sports and spaces.

There's not an approved list of GC topics we can post about.

Creepyrosemary · 23/08/2023 14:43

Dinoboymama · 23/08/2023 10:43

I don't see the issue, I would happily donate my uterus when I die if it were to help someone. I wouldn't donate whilst still living due to caring reasons but if I were brain-dead they may as well take what they can to aid others.

The problem is thst it's controversial and you can't state that they can take your kidney but not your uterus. I really hope that they eill update donor forms with a check list so we can decide what to donate and under which circumstances.

Judashascomeintosomemoney · 23/08/2023 14:45

SunsetBeauregarde · 23/08/2023 13:47

I have reservations, but some of the posts on this thread are completely mental.

Corneas and faces aren’t vital organs and are transplanted to improve quality of life, so acting like transplants are only for life saving treatment is simply not true. There are many example of transplants being performed to improve QOL
The NHS had nothing to do with this operation and there is no indication it will ever offer this
Its not new
No one is making any suggestion that men will receive wombs. This is because medically that’s a nonsense and if the anti trans brigade took some time to understand their own biology given they’re so obsessed with it, they’d know this.
removing a womb does not trigger menopause, removing ovaries does.
ALL dead donor transplants are conducted while a donor is brain dead and still technically alive, so ‘lining up brain dead women to steal their wombs’ is exclamatory nonsense.
No one is going to kill you and steal your womb - these transplants have been performed for almost 10 years and if you think people will be more desperate for a womb than they are for eyes or kidneys and therefore would kill for one, then you’re reinforcing why womb transplants are a step forward to help infertile women.
Womb transplants will not help the vast majority of infertile couples. There are very specific, mechanical reasons for infertility that a womb transplant might overcome, but the absolute majority of infertility issues are endocrine and not mechanical in nature, hence why even though these transplants have been available for years around the world, there has been very few actually performed.

There are very legitimate reasons to find surrogacy unpalatable and many fronts we as feminists have to be fighting right now. Spouting utter, utter bollocks in response to a consensual operation between 2 women to help one of them have a child; an operation I’ll add that YOU DID NOT PAY FOR because it makes you feel a bit icky is misogyny.

If you find surrogacy unpalatable, and you purport to be a feminist, I’m not sure how you can fail to see the clear similarities between surrogacy and uterus transplantation for the ‘consensual’ donor. As for who is paying, I’m not sure what the relevance of that is. I didn’t pay for Kim Kardashian’s surrogacies either, and yet still find it abhorrent.

SunsetBeauregarde · 23/08/2023 14:45

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/08/2023 14:41

The quote is from the section of any study where you discuss further research, it is in no way a suggestion that anyone is researching or planning to research transplanting wombs into men.

They carried out a later survey, as I have said, of nearly 200 males hoping for a uterus transplant. That's what Posie Parker was asking about as someone had seen it going around trans Reddit. A GC male ally on Mumsnet participated. All here on this thread, for anyone interested to read:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3605548-Imperial-College-Womb-Transplant-Survey-Redux

After that, they produced a second paper.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33471119

Results:^ A total of 182 transgender women completed the questionnaire; most women (109 [60%]) were aged 20 to 29 years. Most did not have children prior to transitioning (167 [92%]) and expressed a desire to have children in the future (171 [94%]). In addition, most respondents agreed or strongly agreed that the ability to gestate and give birth to children (171 [94%]) and menstruate (161 [88%]) would enhance perceptions of their femininity. Similarly, high proportions strongly agreed or agreed that having a transplanted, functioning vagina would improve their sexual experience (163 [90%]), improve their quality of life (163 [90%]), and help them to feel like more of a woman (168 [92%]). Nearly all respondents (180 [99%]) believed that uterus transplant would lead to greater happiness in transgender women. More than three-quarters of the respondents (140 [77%]) strongly agreed or agreed that they would be more inclined to cryopreserve sperm if uterus transplant became a realistic option.^

Yes, this survey was mentioned up thread.

Again, no suggestion here either that transplanting wombs into men is biologically feasible. This is qual research into whether or not womb transplant is desirable for trans women. Shocker, it is.

Again with my toddler nipple tassels example - I could conduct research and ask a bunch of 3 year olds if they would like nipple tassels in their size. Many might say yes, it does not mean this would ever be considered for production.

Cynicaltheorist · 23/08/2023 14:45

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/08/2023 14:41

The quote is from the section of any study where you discuss further research, it is in no way a suggestion that anyone is researching or planning to research transplanting wombs into men.

They carried out a later survey, as I have said, of nearly 200 males hoping for a uterus transplant. That's what Posie Parker was asking about as someone had seen it going around trans Reddit. A GC male ally on Mumsnet participated. All here on this thread, for anyone interested to read:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3605548-Imperial-College-Womb-Transplant-Survey-Redux

After that, they produced a second paper.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33471119

Results:^ A total of 182 transgender women completed the questionnaire; most women (109 [60%]) were aged 20 to 29 years. Most did not have children prior to transitioning (167 [92%]) and expressed a desire to have children in the future (171 [94%]). In addition, most respondents agreed or strongly agreed that the ability to gestate and give birth to children (171 [94%]) and menstruate (161 [88%]) would enhance perceptions of their femininity. Similarly, high proportions strongly agreed or agreed that having a transplanted, functioning vagina would improve their sexual experience (163 [90%]), improve their quality of life (163 [90%]), and help them to feel like more of a woman (168 [92%]). Nearly all respondents (180 [99%]) believed that uterus transplant would lead to greater happiness in transgender women. More than three-quarters of the respondents (140 [77%]) strongly agreed or agreed that they would be more inclined to cryopreserve sperm if uterus transplant became a realistic option.^

That's terrifying. Speechless. How do you get this genie back in the bottle?

justteanbiscuits · 23/08/2023 14:46

JudgeAnderson · 23/08/2023 12:10

Great that the adult gets what she wants, less great for the children who have been exposed to large amounts of immune-suppressing druge in utero.

What about the children of those women who have received heart, kidney, liver trasplants?? I linked to some of the research papers about it a few pages ago. There is A LOT of research about it out there

Stormydayagain · 23/08/2023 14:47

WeWereInParis · 23/08/2023 14:17

body gestational donation. Aka surrogacy with brain dead women!!

Just imagine finding out that's how you were born.

https://www.livescience.com/42301-brain-death-body-alive.html

I think this is as far fetched as men gestating a baby in the, amazing, way a women does IE without attaching them to a women's body as the Chinese scientist did with rats. Unless of course they are considering using profoundly brain damaged women as surrogates rather than brain dead, which wouldn't surprise me.

Life After Brain Death: Is the Body Still 'Alive'?

Although a brain-dead person is not legally alive, how much of the body will keep on working with the help of technology, and for how long?

https://www.livescience.com/42301-brain-death-body-alive.html

Megifer · 23/08/2023 14:48

I like the quiet segue from "no research has been done or planned" to "no further research is being planned"

Of course they'll be researching it 🤣🤣🤣 somewhere right now there will be a poor fucker of a mouse with a uterus growing on its back ready to transplant into a male mouse 🙄

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/08/2023 14:48

Again, no suggestion here either that transplanting wombs into men is biologically feasible.

They said in the first paper that they don't see any clinical reason why it wouldn't be, and speculated about how it would probably be more risky and invasive for the donor. You read that, no?

Slothtoes · 23/08/2023 14:51

Why are we even considering men (whatever their gender identity views) should ever get womb transplants? No way- too risky for man, way too risky for any baby- though it would never get to gestate to term because men’s bodies aren’t designed to carry pregnancies. Obviously.

There’s enough issues to think about with women donating wombs to other women and whether this safe for women or babies and is a good use of NHS resources, and what the wider social implications of all that might be.

Chersfrozenface · 23/08/2023 14:52

The paper's conclusion says "if UTx becomes an established treatment option for women with AUFI".

Well, the news story is about the first one in the UK. An estimated 90 uterus transplants had been carried out worldwide between the first in 2014 and the end of 2021, and that was over 18 months ago so the figure is probably now higher..

It's fair to say, therefore, that it's gradually becoming an established treatment option

Prof. Richard Smith, one of the surgeons in this case, is of the opinion that it will be at least 10 or 20 years before transwomen can have uterus transplants.

Helleofabore · 23/08/2023 14:52

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/08/2023 14:33

(Note that the authors consider transwomen to be suffering from absolute uterine factor infertility (AUFI) i.e. lack of a womb, hitherto only recognised in natal women

I've always found that description chilling. Men, many of whom are capable of fathering children, are not infertile women. They don't have a uterus because they're fucking men.

yes.

Iwantcakeeveryday · 23/08/2023 14:52

KimberleyClark · 23/08/2023 14:13

In terms of quality of life, there’s nothing I can think of that could improve it more for a couple going through infertility than to hopefully have a child successfully. You really can’t know the pain of it unless you’ve been there.

I went through infertility and never had a child. But I have made my peace with it and enjoy my life now. I think we need to get away from this way of thinking that not being able to have a child is the worst possible thing that can happen to a woman and that it justifies anything and everything to prevent it.

This absolutely. It is sad but the fact someone can;t have a baby doesn't mean that anything that could enable it is the right thing to do.

SunsetBeauregarde · 23/08/2023 14:53

I can because it’s not comparable - that’s like saying ALL transplants are somehow exploitative because…. Feminism? Im not sure what your argument is or how you are drawing up a comparison between women paying other women to rent their bodies to have children, and a woman receiving a womb at great personal jeopardy to herself in order to put herself through pregnancy. It’s not the same.

FYI I’m not against altruistic surrogacy where no money is exchanged and the birthing woman and non birthing woman are matched anonymously; where the birthing woman presents herself as a surrogate with no coercion either financial or anything else.

Sweetpeasaremadeforbees · 23/08/2023 14:53

Of course they'll be researching it 🤣🤣🤣 somewhere right now there will be a poor fucker of a mouse with a uterus growing on its back ready to transplant into a male mouse 🙄

Exactly, the naivety I see on here on a daily basis is breath taking. Like if it isn't happening in the UK then it isn't happening anywhere🙄

Judashascomeintosomemoney · 23/08/2023 14:53

SunsetBeauregarde · 23/08/2023 14:45

Yes, this survey was mentioned up thread.

Again, no suggestion here either that transplanting wombs into men is biologically feasible. This is qual research into whether or not womb transplant is desirable for trans women. Shocker, it is.

Again with my toddler nipple tassels example - I could conduct research and ask a bunch of 3 year olds if they would like nipple tassels in their size. Many might say yes, it does not mean this would ever be considered for production.

Show quote history

Changing sex isn’t feasible (possible) either.
And yet, look at the multi million dollar industry that has been created pretending that it is.

Naunet · 23/08/2023 14:53

Slothtoes · 23/08/2023 14:51

Why are we even considering men (whatever their gender identity views) should ever get womb transplants? No way- too risky for man, way too risky for any baby- though it would never get to gestate to term because men’s bodies aren’t designed to carry pregnancies. Obviously.

There’s enough issues to think about with women donating wombs to other women and whether this safe for women or babies and is a good use of NHS resources, and what the wider social implications of all that might be.

Because men want it, and saying no to men is The Worst Thing Ever.

justteanbiscuits · 23/08/2023 14:54

Dibblydoodahdah · 23/08/2023 13:09

I’ve got an anal skin tag. Had it for ten years since my second pregnancy. Causes me discomfort as it gets sore and it makes me feel disgusting as I can never clean properly. The NHS won’t do anything about it as it’s “cosmetic” but they will do a womb transplant which involves a huge medical team for many hours. Honestly, I get more fucked off by the day…

When have the NHS done a womb transplant?