U.K. first womb transplant

[VestaTilley]

The BBC has reported today that the first womb transplant has taken place in a hospital in England. A 40 year old woman donated her womb to her sister, hopefully enabling her to have children.

AIBU to be concerned about a potential dystopian future where women’s reproductive organs are harvested like car parts?

Journalists are treating this like it’s a positive, with few questions being asked about how the donor is recovering, how the foetus (if the recipient does conceive) will fare if the woman has to continue taking immuno suppressive drugs? Whether there is increased miscarriage risk?

Transplants are supposed to be life saving, not about wish fulfilment. Apparently 10 brain dead women are being lined up for future donation!

To me this all seems part of a bigger picture of surrogacy, synthetic embryo creation (reported earlier this year) and a drive to disassociate women from reproduction and the biology of our sex.

Am I alone in being bothered by this? I wish journalists would look more at the bigger societal picture.

Link here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-66514270

Is there a longer quote on this? He’s said he gets a lot of enquiries about it but not that it’s something they’re actively or imminently doing?

Here's an academic paper from BJOG: an International Journal of Obstetrics & Gynaecology
https://obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1471-0528.15438?af=R

Its conclusion:
"Despite a number of anatomical, hormonal, fertility, and obstetric considerations that require consideration, there is no overwhelming clinical argument against performing UTx as part of GRS. However, the increased radicality associated with the retrieval operation, including a longer vaginal cuff and more extensive ligamentous dissection, potentially necessitates the use of deceased donors. Alternatively, F2M transgender men may offer an alternative donor pool should they accept the increased risk compared with standard hysterectomy. Prior to undertaking UTx in transgender women, further research should be undertaken including cadaveric retrieval and implantations to assess the feasibility of the anatomical considerations discussed herein. Furthermore, it is recommended that animal studies are revisited to identify potential unknown risks and determine whether genetic males can successfully conceive and maintain pregnancy.
The reproductive aspirations of M2F transgender women deserve equal consideration to those assigned female at birth and, subject to feasibility being shown in the suggested areas of research, it may be legally and ethically impermissible not to consider performing UTx in this population."

My god child has a dead baby (kept alive on ventilator) kidney transplanted in him … should he be horrified at this when he grows up?

As if those two things are remotely comparable.

Is being born to a technically dead shell that wasn't even your mother that was used as an incubator the same as a kidney transplant?

This is the concluding paragraph of the paper which preceded the survey they did, which was given to interested participants for the survey (my bold for some highlights):

Despite a number of anatomical, hormonal, fertility, and obstetric considerations that require consideration, there is no overwhelming clinical argument against performing UTx as part of GRS. However, the increased radicality associated with the retrieval operation, including a longer vaginal cuff and more extensive ligamentous dissection, potentially necessitates the use of deceased donors. Alternatively, F2M transgender men may offer an alternative donor pool should they accept the increased risk compared with standard hysterectomy. Prior to undertaking UTx in transgender women, further research should be undertaken including cadaveric retrieval and implantations to assess the feasibility of the anatomical considerations discussed herein. Furthermore, it is recommended that animal studies are revisited to identify potential unknown risks and determine whether genetic males can successfully conceive and maintain pregnancy.
The reproductive aspirations of M2F transgender women deserve equal consideration to those assigned female at birth and, subject to feasibility being shown in the suggested areas of research, it may be legally and ethically impermissible not to consider performing UTx in this population.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6492192/

The reproductive aspirations of M2F transgender women deserve equal consideration to those assigned female at birth

WTAF!

Yeah that’s the same…

Do you think brain dead women should be donated to men who want a body to orgasm into? She’s just a vessel right, that exists to provide for others. So if she can be forced to grow a child whilst brain dead, why not use her as a receptacle for men too, right? It’s just part of the same process…

Is that the consideration section from the study you’re quoting there? I agree it sounds good if you’re not sure how research works but this is a very standard study practice.

Theres no onward suggestion that this research is planned or even being considered. This is just a discussion point on possible further research which every study will have as a section, it’s not any commitment or even suggestion that that research would be carried out?

Is there more? Like any actual research applications or funding discussions? Or ethical/ feasibility work planned?

😶

And from the same paper:

(Note that the authors consider transwomen to be suffering from absolute uterine factor infertility (AUFI) i.e. lack of a womb, hitherto only recognised in natal women, snd that discrimination on the ground of "gender identity" is illegal, which is not the case in the UK.)

The bolding is mine.

"Ethically, the consideration of performing UTx in transgender women is primarily motivated by the considerations of justice and equality. Like all women, psychological harm may arise secondary to a mismatch between reproductive capacity and aspiration. Transgender women have AUFI, and therefore they cannot experience gestation, which may play an integral role in the expression and consolidation of a female identity,5 and is considered by many to constitute a transformative experience.6 Legally, under the Equality Act (2010) transgender people are afforded explicit protection from both direct and indirect forms of discrimination through the characterisation of ‘gender reassignment’ as a protected characteristic. As such, M2F transgender women cannot be subjected to discrimination on the basis of this characteristic. Subsequently, if UTx becomes an established treatment option for women with AUFI, UK and EU legislation would make it legally impermissible to refuse to perform UTx in transgender women solely because of their gender identity."

I read it and was horrified. Just because something can be done doesn’t mean it should be.

Ereshkigalangcleg I admire your patience.
Do you ever feel like it’s Groundhog day?
‘It’s not happening now’
‘It won’t happen in future’
’Give me the source’
’No, not that source…’
’Women shut up’

five years later….

’Why didn’t you women say anything before?’

And from the same paper:

(Note that the authors consider transwomen to be suffering from absolute uterine factor infertility (AUFI) i.e. lack of a womb, hitherto only recognised in natal women, snd that discrimination on the ground of "gender identity" is illegal, which is not the case in the UK.)

The bolding is mine.

And they lied about it. Ben Jones responded to Posie Parker which is quoted, he is an Imperial College researcher on that paper and part of the womb transplant charity. He told her categorically that there was no suggestion whatsoever that anyone was looking at uterus transplants into men.

Yeah, the best one is ‘where are all the feminists’ 🤯

SO much this.

@Zipidydodah actually the quote isn't that crazy - it may not happen in the West but there are parts of the world which have high transplant figures.... due to kidnap/coercion - it is not make believe or fantasy.

No one is suggesting this will be done, it’s just an onward research section and hypothetical on a research paper. The ‘therefore trans women will have every right to a womb transplant’ but at the end hasn’t actually been legally tested, it’s a consideration of how this research MIGHT interact with existing laws. The researcher here isn’t suggesting that’s right or wrong, they’re highlighting a need for a clarification on use case for the research.

I know it reads like an official interpretation of the law but it’s not - this is the problem when you take research like this out of context and sensationalise it. The researcher is pushing their conclusions in a clinical paper to a conversational, societal conclusion (as they have to) and you’re using it to whip up malcontent.

The point stands: there is absolutely no suggestion here that men will receive uteruses in transplants. None at all.

(Note that the authors consider transwomen to be suffering from absolute uterine factor infertility (AUFI) i.e. lack of a womb, hitherto only recognised in natal women

I've always found that description chilling. Men, many of whom are capable of fathering children, are not infertile women. They don't have a uterus because they're fucking men.

I know it reads like an official interpretation of the law

I know it isn't. They are as clueless about the law as they are about female fertility.

Damned right.

And I recognise our esteemed @Ereshkigalangcleg from many of the FWR threads and know she is always to be relied upon for sensible, thoughtful and well researched debate.

"Subsequently, if UTx becomes an established treatment option for women with AUFI, UK and EU legislation would make it legally impermissible to refuse to perform UTx in transgender women solely because of their gender identity."

They will be rejected for other reasons. Medical reasons. Not suitable for surgery reasons. They do not have the required support structure to make this a successful surgery.

He’s right, there isn’t?

The quote is from the section of any study where you discuss further research, it is in no way a suggestion that anyone is researching or planning to research transplanting wombs into men.

@NutellaEllaElla
Thats correct

Exactly - it’s in no way a suggestion that further research is to be carried out, it’s just a discussion on possible further research at the end of a study.