Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

A moral question for you all

482 replies

WhaleSharkBootySweat · 22/08/2023 09:43

Imagine you go into a really nice small business selling either homewares or food. You pick something up that you really like, but it's the end of the month and you can't really afford it. What is the main reason that stops you from stealing it?

A.) Fear of getting caught, punished, criminal record, shame, losing your job
B.) Sympathy for the small business owner, not wanting them to lose money

Or something else.
For me it's massively more B but then I don't steal from chain stores, so I guess A must come into it then?
I just wonder where these moral decisions we make daily come from. Is it fear of repercussions or genuine moral compass? Why do a third of shoppers steal from self checkouts but wouldn't steal from a cashier at the till?
I think about the idea that if there wasn't law and order, then we would all steal and murder, but I genuinely believe that most of us wouldn't? I mean I've never felt compelled to, but why is that? Empathy?

OP posts:
FutureThroughLensOfThePast · 22/08/2023 18:25

sweeneytoddsrazor · 22/08/2023 15:15

So let's take it a step further. If stealing because you are starving is acceptable, are there levels of food you should be stealing? A loaf of value bread and a tin of value beans would stave of hunger equally as well as a wagyu steak and an M&S salad. Is one ok and the other wrong.

If you're stealing from what might be called necessity and using that as a moral justification, it follows that you shouldn't steal more than the minimum you need; so isn't so much that levels are attached to specific food items more that the thief moves further away from the 'necessity' justification the more they steal in excess of meeting the basic need.

Q2C4 · 22/08/2023 18:26

@WhaleSharkBootySweat which I find odd as at the end of the day, the victim of tax evasion is the same regardless of the entity evading the tax.

StupidHip · 22/08/2023 18:27

My initial reaction was that's just not something I'd ever dream of doing, but probably that's because the repercussions aren't worth the risk.

Original poster
WhaleSharkBootySweat · 22/08/2023 18:41

@StupidHip so for you it's the repercussions rather than the risk, which I would say is the case for 99% of people. Despite what they say.
'It's just wrong'... doesn't stop people. Ultimately fear of repercussions is what drives us.
Take the MP expenses scandal of a few years ago. They either didn't realise what they were doing was wrong or they did but never thought they would get found out. And the majority of MPs did over claim on their expenses...

OP posts:
Original poster
WhaleSharkBootySweat · 22/08/2023 18:42

@ZebraDanios thanks for not being obtuse

OP posts:
MontyDonsBlueScarf · 22/08/2023 19:22

LodiDodi · 22/08/2023 17:48

I wouldn't say it was morally wrong to steal from a huge business, especially if they dodge tax. A lot of people do, hence why they invest in security.

I seem to be in the minority here, but there's a lot I disagree with about this.

Is it wrong to dodge tax? That depends what you mean by 'dodge'. It's against the law to evade tax but not to avoid it. Morally I don't think there's any difference between a business arranging its affairs to minimise its tax liability, within the law, and an individual doing the same thing. There are threads going on right now with questions like 'what would the tax position be if I moved into the house before I sold it?' That's no different to a business minimising its tax liability for the benefit of its shareholders. And the directors of a company have a statutory duty to act in the best interests of its shareholders.

In many cases if businesses are not paying what people think is sufficient tax, it's because the law allows it. In those cases it's the law that needs changing, not the business.

If a large business does something you think is wrong, but is within the law, how does that make it OK to do something wrong yourself?

If so many people steal from a large business that it needs security, how does that make the stealing right?

Taken together, these opinions lead to 'let's all pile on to anyone who's done anything we think is wrong, regardless of whether the law says it's wrong or whether we ourselves are acting within the law'. I find that very scary.

Rosscameasdoody · 22/08/2023 19:27

MontyDonsBlueScarf · 22/08/2023 19:22

I seem to be in the minority here, but there's a lot I disagree with about this.

Is it wrong to dodge tax? That depends what you mean by 'dodge'. It's against the law to evade tax but not to avoid it. Morally I don't think there's any difference between a business arranging its affairs to minimise its tax liability, within the law, and an individual doing the same thing. There are threads going on right now with questions like 'what would the tax position be if I moved into the house before I sold it?' That's no different to a business minimising its tax liability for the benefit of its shareholders. And the directors of a company have a statutory duty to act in the best interests of its shareholders.

In many cases if businesses are not paying what people think is sufficient tax, it's because the law allows it. In those cases it's the law that needs changing, not the business.

If a large business does something you think is wrong, but is within the law, how does that make it OK to do something wrong yourself?

If so many people steal from a large business that it needs security, how does that make the stealing right?

Taken together, these opinions lead to 'let's all pile on to anyone who's done anything we think is wrong, regardless of whether the law says it's wrong or whether we ourselves are acting within the law'. I find that very scary.

Show quote history

Absolutely spot on.

Dandymax1 · 22/08/2023 19:42

The only possible reason I could see for me stealing something is, if I was desperate to feed my children. And, I mean through real hardship. I've never stolen anything but if I was so desperate to feed my kids then I might.

ZebraDanios · 22/08/2023 19:43

WhaleSharkBootySweat · 22/08/2023 18:41

@StupidHip so for you it's the repercussions rather than the risk, which I would say is the case for 99% of people. Despite what they say.
'It's just wrong'... doesn't stop people. Ultimately fear of repercussions is what drives us.
Take the MP expenses scandal of a few years ago. They either didn't realise what they were doing was wrong or they did but never thought they would get found out. And the majority of MPs did over claim on their expenses...

I do think there’s some truth in it when people say they wouldn’t be able to enjoy something they’d stolen.

I think there’s a bit of posturing on here - how many of the people who are horrified by this question have downloaded music without paying for it? - but I can believe someone who says they would feel too bad about their ill-gotten gains to appreciate them, even without the fear of being found out.

As for MPs and their expenses - I think a lot of them are a breed apart anyway and their enormous sense of entitlement is what allows them to get away with it.

ZebraDanios · 22/08/2023 19:47

Another one: say you can access your neighbour’s Wi-Fi without a password. Is it stealing to use it? After all, they’re not paying any more if you use it…

(I suspect the fairest thing to do is tell them and offer to split the bill between you but that’s not the question!)

Wakintoblueskies · 22/08/2023 20:01

ZebraDanios · 22/08/2023 17:57

Phones in school actually impact learning and behaviour, though, so that’s quite different - a lot of uniform rules are truly arbitrary. My point was only that I am really surprised by how many people think a child missing days of school is an entirely fitting consequence for an action that affects literally no-one. Having a phone in school has the potential to harm that child’s learning; there is no potential for harm whatsoever in having bows on your socks, so you’d think more people - even if they eventually went along with the rule for a quiet life - would query the emphasis put on it.

Show quote history

They are just examples of ‘rules’ It’s off topic to the general reason of the OP’s conversation.

ZebraDanios · 22/08/2023 20:09

Sorry @Wakintoblueskies. And sorry @WhaleSharkBootySweat for going off-topic. I’ll shut up now.

Wakintoblueskies · 22/08/2023 20:12

ZebraDanios · 22/08/2023 20:09

Sorry @Wakintoblueskies. And sorry @WhaleSharkBootySweat for going off-topic. I’ll shut up now.

Ah no don’t!!! I just meant it was an example rather than my general feeling about school uniforms (which I completely agree with you about).

BrawnWild · 22/08/2023 20:16

To answer your question and broader Covid point etc...

I follow rules because that is the society I want to live in.

Whatwouldnanado · 22/08/2023 20:19

Plain old wrong. Do as you would be done by others.

Threenow · 22/08/2023 20:54

Another vote for C: - you just don't steal things. I wouldn't dream of stealing anything from a shop, ever.

TofuBurgerAnyone · 22/08/2023 21:21

C: - 7th Commandment innit

whatkatydid2013 · 22/08/2023 21:24

Cathpot · 22/08/2023 14:22

I agree that the interesting question here is - why do we think it is wrong?

What stops me stealing is not wanting to be in the category ‘thief’- even if no one would find out.

So it’s my own self image that would be thrown out of whack - and secondary to that -the risk of other people categorising me as a thief, which I would hate.

When I stop to consider it I realise I have strong anti thief feelings- I don’t want to be associated with that group, and at some level I find the idea of stealing really uncomfortable and I am judging people who steal.

Im not religious and I believe our inner moral code is built via life experience so my feelings on stealing must come from the way thieving is perceived generally in our society.

Societal disapproval of anti social activities ( up to and including theft and murder) is a useful tool to allow us to live together mostly harmoniously.

Having said all that - I would not condemn a person (or myself) stealing for their survival or the survival of their dependents- so I do have a shiftable / pragmatic moral code depending on circumstance.

I would agree. I also think it’s not as super straightforward as people think. Many people do steal things they just don’t think of it as stealing: printing out personal stuff at work or taking pens from the office, not handing something in that you find, not correcting staff if they get your bill wrong at a restaurant, not letting amazon/similar know when they delivered the same thing twice, taking a day off sick when not actually poorly. There will be so many things that people won’t agree are or are not stealing. For me I do print things and I do take pens from the office. I would hand in most things I found but on a couple of occasions in the past when I found £5/£10 on the floor in a car park or on the pavement I just kept it. I always say if I notice my bills wrong/call if I get a delivery that isn’t mine or is a duplicate. I wouldn’t take a day off when not unwell at all but I might take a day off when I was just a little under the weather/very tired. Some people will think that’s fine, some that it’s awful, some that I’m daft for telling someone about bill being wrong.

ErrolTheDragon · 22/08/2023 21:36

I follow rules because that is the society I want to live in.

Of course, that does depend on whether the society and its rules are generally fair, that it actually is a society with values worth upholding.

To take an extreme example off the top of my head, it'd be hard to say that a member of the French resistance was being immoral if they stole from the occupying forces. Following rules, 'just following orders' can be very immoral.

ZebraDanios · 22/08/2023 22:27

TofuBurgerAnyone · 22/08/2023 21:21

C: - 7th Commandment innit

Interesting that it’s only the 7th: a bit less important than not killing people, significantly less important than saying “Oh my God!”…

Halfemptyhalfling · 22/08/2023 22:34

If everyone comes in and steals then the business can't afford to keep going and it will not be there next time I want to buy something. Same reason for buying train or bus tickets.

It shocks me how much shoplifting the supermarkets must be able to tolerate given they think it's worth putting in all the self service tills

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 22/08/2023 22:36

I have a set of moral standards that I live by, that is based on treating other people with respect, as I would like to be treated. I want to live in a society where it is considered wrong to steal from people, because I think theft shows a lack of respect for people/businesses, and so that is how I live.

I don’t believe that every company respects their customers, and I know there are plenty of people who think it is completely acceptable to rob other people, but I personally don’t think that is a reason for me to stoop to their level.

That said, I would not condemn someone who stole necessities because they were on the bones of their arse - I wouldn’t condone the theft, but I would understand it.

pimplebum · 22/08/2023 22:36

The only way I would steal is if
A ) really sure I would get away with it
AND
B ) my kids would have to be genuinely starving ....but id still rather the utter shame of Knocking on strangers doors and beg for 50p's to pay for the food than steal as the shame if being caught would be too awful

I did shoplift a few times as a teen and I kind of got a thrill out if it , was so exciting to go home with luxury item that I could never afford ( I'm talking lip balm from body shop etc)
I think it's having kids and not wanting a criminal record and the fear of being shamed in community that would stop me now.

hot2trotter · 23/08/2023 12:27

Unpopular but being honest, there's a lot of stuff I'd do if I was guaranteed to get away with it.