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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

A moral question for you all

482 replies

WhaleSharkBootySweat · 22/08/2023 09:43

Imagine you go into a really nice small business selling either homewares or food. You pick something up that you really like, but it's the end of the month and you can't really afford it. What is the main reason that stops you from stealing it?

A.) Fear of getting caught, punished, criminal record, shame, losing your job
B.) Sympathy for the small business owner, not wanting them to lose money

Or something else.
For me it's massively more B but then I don't steal from chain stores, so I guess A must come into it then?
I just wonder where these moral decisions we make daily come from. Is it fear of repercussions or genuine moral compass? Why do a third of shoppers steal from self checkouts but wouldn't steal from a cashier at the till?
I think about the idea that if there wasn't law and order, then we would all steal and murder, but I genuinely believe that most of us wouldn't? I mean I've never felt compelled to, but why is that? Empathy?

OP posts:
MontyDonsBlueScarf · 22/08/2023 15:03

@pam290358 exactly.

WhaleSharkBootySweat · 22/08/2023 15:04

@Rosscameasdoody well I'm working so I can only contribute minimally

OP posts:
ABeesWings · 22/08/2023 15:05

I wouldn’t steal just because I wouldn’t steal and it wouldn’t cross my mind to.
Im the sort of person that even if a shop was giving out free samples I would be checking if it was really free and looking for a charity box to at least put a £1 in.

RiverDulas · 22/08/2023 15:06

WhaleSharkBootySweat · 22/08/2023 14:42

The question is WHY do you think it's wrong. If I said 'I think being gay is wrong' you would very rightly ask 'why do you think that?' so that's what I'm asking MN.

“Why do I think it’s wrong?”

I think it’s wrong because you are taking something that doesn’t belong to you. Also, you are breaking ‘the rules’. The rules are that the shop is selling something, and if you want it, you need to pay money in exchange for said item. By stealing it, you are not conforming to the rules of the game.

Brokendaughter · 22/08/2023 15:09

Why I think it is wrong is something to do with believing that I do not have the right to have things just because I might want them.

While it might be harder to think of a large company like Tescos working to have things available to sell, they do put in money/time/effort to get products to put on their shelves.

I believe that labour/enterprise/effort should be supported, so if a shop has made/grown/purchased an item (or a person in their own home), then they can choose to exchange it for cash & I can choose to take them up on their offer because we have chosen cash as our method of exchange.

For this to work, we both understand that they own the item until I give them the thing they are willing to exchange it for, when it becomes mine.

So, they won't take it back after I've paid for it & I won't take it from them if I haven't paid for it, and nobody else will take it from me (in a law abiding society where people don't steal).

Because we uphold this system, shops will take the time to source products that I might like/want/need to buy which I might struggle to get without them.
e.g. I could never get a banana if shops didn't import them as they don't grow in this country.
I can make shoes, but only if someone lets me get the tools & materials to make them out of & I have the space & time to do it.
I'd rather pay someone else to have the tooling, materials, knowledge & skills to make shoes for me.
While in theory I can make/grow what I would need to survive, I would prefer to have the option to purchase many things that require specialisations & use my time in other ways.

Without a society wide belief/contract that I can own things with little fear of them being taken from me, or that a shop can own things with the same security, nobody would risk having those goods or would have to guard them like every banana or pair of shoes was the Crown Jewels.

The ability to trade is an important social contract that supports a society where people can specialise (so we all get nicer bread/shoes instead of being at the mercy of how good a baker/cobbler we might or might not be) & ultimately lift up all citizens.
Scientists can spend time working out how to cure diseases or heat homes efficiently instead of making their own shoes.
Farmers can develop methods to increase yields & feed more people instead of trying to make tyres for their tractors etc...

I believe that some of being part of a successful society is based on following certain rules such as not stealing, which should lead to a better, safer society for all.
So it's a 'for the greater good of society' in general over what is good for me right now sort of reason, which overall is good for me as it creates a society that is safer & better for me to be part of.

Ughhh, that feels like really muddy thinking & I will probably end up spending a week thinking about this.

ABeesWings · 22/08/2023 15:10

In answer to why I think it’s wrong - it’s wrong because it belongs to someone else. I wouldn’t take something that belongs to someone else. I suppose in OPs choices that means I would feel sorry for the business owner.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 22/08/2023 15:10

We can’t think why it’s wrong when the options don’t include the most obvious one!

Yes we can. Lots of people on the thread have done just that. Just like many other thread discussions develop well beyond the basic scenario set out in the OP.

Wakintoblueskies · 22/08/2023 15:15

pam290358 · 22/08/2023 14:59

I was just reading through your last post and about to ask a question, but I think I get it now - you’re tapping into their personal belief system by asking not why do you think that, but how do you know that ?

How do I know it’s wrong?

Because it’s learned behaviour. Expectations (of not only my behaviour but respect) were learned at a very young age. These became second nature. From my parents viewpoint, they would also have learned right from wrong but they would have learned it from a Christian religion fear of repercussions from God.

sweeneytoddsrazor · 22/08/2023 15:15

So let's take it a step further. If stealing because you are starving is acceptable, are there levels of food you should be stealing? A loaf of value bread and a tin of value beans would stave of hunger equally as well as a wagyu steak and an M&S salad. Is one ok and the other wrong.

Maddy70 · 22/08/2023 15:20

I've never stolen anything in my life. It's just wrong , the value is being taken from someone so why would you do it ?

Wakintoblueskies · 22/08/2023 15:20

sweeneytoddsrazor · 22/08/2023 15:15

So let's take it a step further. If stealing because you are starving is acceptable, are there levels of food you should be stealing? A loaf of value bread and a tin of value beans would stave of hunger equally as well as a wagyu steak and an M&S salad. Is one ok and the other wrong.

No stealing from M&S or Tesco are irrelevant. It depends why a person was stealing. That is where my morals are seemingly flexible.

However… if an alcoholic steals a bottle of vodka because they have a disease and need alcohol, is it any different to a drug addict stealing someone’s phone in order to sell to buy drugs?

KinellMate · 22/08/2023 15:23

If I was 100% sure I would get away with it I would steal. Getting caught, losing my job, people's opinion of me stop me from stealing, not the fact that it's wrong.

MrsMarzetti · 22/08/2023 15:24

Neither A or B, i don't steal because it is wrong. Simple as that.

Wakintoblueskies · 22/08/2023 15:25

MrsMarzetti · 22/08/2023 15:24

Neither A or B, i don't steal because it is wrong. Simple as that.

I think the question has moved on to how do you know it’s wrong?

WhaleSharkBootySweat · 22/08/2023 15:35

I suppose I think that there are grey areas. It's not right or wrong, it's about context. Tax evasion is stealing to me. Underpaying workers is stealing. Claiming to work from home and doing household chores is stealing. Lying about your expenses is stealing. Companies who charge extortionate amounts for parking fines is stealing.
We lump Winona Ryder and a woman who steals to feed her child in together as both committing the same act. But it's not is it? One act was committed for a thrill or possibly self sabotage or a cry for jelp, the other was to survive.
I'm not condoning stealing but I do wonder where morality comes from. And why it's so rigid.

OP posts:
Wakintoblueskies · 22/08/2023 15:39

And why it's so rigid.

It isn’t rigid as many people on this thread have said that stealing to survive is different to stealing for gratification.

sweeneytoddsrazor · 22/08/2023 15:43

Or another scenario. Betty is a multi millionaire. Elsie is piss poor totally starving. Elsie scams Betty of a couple of hundred pounds. Not a victimless crime, but nobody has been hurt, Betty won't miss the money and Elsie will benefit enormously from the money. Acceptable or no?

TarantinoIsAMisogynist · 22/08/2023 15:47

We lump Winona Ryder and a woman who steals to feed her child in together as both committing the same act.

Who is this "we" you're referring to? Because I don't know anybody that would view both as the same.

Wakintoblueskies · 22/08/2023 15:48

TarantinoIsAMisogynist · 22/08/2023 15:47

We lump Winona Ryder and a woman who steals to feed her child in together as both committing the same act.

Who is this "we" you're referring to? Because I don't know anybody that would view both as the same.

Do you mean the act of stealing is the same? It is stealing.

However also don’t think anybody puts the two examples you have given in the same category?

ZebraDanios · 22/08/2023 15:49

@TarantinoIsAMisogynist Similarly, the question of morality only comes into play for me when an action impacts someone else (even if the impact is indirect).

I’m with you on that. It’s one of those areas where I really struggle to understand the alternative viewpoint. I’m really surprised so many people here are saying “I know it’s wrong because that’s how I was brought up” or “I know it’s wrong because stealing is just wrong” or even as one poster pointed out because “thou shalt not steal” - isn’t it fairly obvious that stealing is wrong because someone is harmed by it?

Q2C4 · 22/08/2023 15:50

Because I have no entitlement to it if I haven't paid for it. It belongs to the business and I respect property ownership.

ZebraDanios · 22/08/2023 15:51

sweeneytoddsrazor · 22/08/2023 15:43

Or another scenario. Betty is a multi millionaire. Elsie is piss poor totally starving. Elsie scams Betty of a couple of hundred pounds. Not a victimless crime, but nobody has been hurt, Betty won't miss the money and Elsie will benefit enormously from the money. Acceptable or no?

Elsie’s fine by me. No-one needs several million pounds. From a utilitarian point of view I can’t see anything wrong with what Elsie’s done.

WhaleSharkBootySweat · 22/08/2023 15:57

@Wakintoblueskies well.. the law does.
And in the cases where the law doesn't apply the same punishment, there is outcry. For example, when that rapist in America was given a lenient sentence due to his blossoming swimming career... quite rightly, people were pissed off. The crime is the same. The impact is the same.

OP posts:
ZebraDanios · 22/08/2023 15:58

Perhaps people who have turned out differently to their family are in a better position to answer?

It’s not quite answering your question but I don’t have a lot of time for the idea that “rules are rules” whereas my parents do. It used to drive me nuts when my parents would tell me not to do something “because I said so”, because I’d have liked an explanation of why it was wrong rather than be expected to obey unquestioningly. I would prefer my own kids to do the right thing (or not do the wrong thing) because they understand the consequences it has for someone else rather than because they are following a series of what might otherwise seem like arbitrary rules.

I wonder whether any of that made any sense…

WhaleSharkBootySweat · 22/08/2023 16:00

@ZebraDanios I agree. I'm always fascinated by people who just do or don't do things without questioning it. This was very evident during the pandemic.

OP posts: