A moral question for you all

[WhaleSharkBootySweat]

Imagine you go into a really nice small business selling either homewares or food. You pick something up that you really like, but it's the end of the month and you can't really afford it. What is the main reason that stops you from stealing it?

A.) Fear of getting caught, punished, criminal record, shame, losing your job
B.) Sympathy for the small business owner, not wanting them to lose money

Or something else.
For me it's massively more B but then I don't steal from chain stores, so I guess A must come into it then?
I just wonder where these moral decisions we make daily come from. Is it fear of repercussions or genuine moral compass? Why do a third of shoppers steal from self checkouts but wouldn't steal from a cashier at the till?
I think about the idea that if there wasn't law and order, then we would all steal and murder, but I genuinely believe that most of us wouldn't? I mean I've never felt compelled to, but why is that? Empathy?

Ok I understand.
Why wouldn’t I?
Probably because I was raised with my family’s values and they are ingrained in me. I don’t think about why I wouldn’t do something wrong. Its automatic. If my family were thieves and scoundrels then the likelihood of me turning out the same would be higher. It’s learned behaviour.

Perhaps people who have turned out differently to their family are in a better position to answer?

My DC took an item from a shop when they were approx 7. I was upset because at 7, I felt they were too old not to have developed their own moral compass. We went back to the shop together and returned the item with an apology. I read many children’s psychologists views as I was very worried. DC2 is still liable to take what isn’t theirs eg will think nothing of taking my or their sister’s belongings. So is it part of someone’s personality to be more a risk taker? Needs immediate gratification?. I don’t believe so and will keep reminding until they learn.

At last, someone gets it !

It’s just something I wouldn’t do!
I don’t think too much into it - I just know it’s wrong.

Interesting. Nature versus nurture. I’ve always thought risk taking is a personality trait, and apparently there is evidence that this can be linked with chosen lifestyle and career.

B matters to me, but it's also applicable to bigger businesses. Big businesses go bust too. Or they close down your local branch because it's not viable any more. Or they have to lock loads of stuff up, making shopping a worse experience. The world only works properly if there's a certain amount of trust and you can't keep on eroding it and not expect that to make things worse.

Interesting. Nature versus nurture. I’ve always thought risk taking is a personality trait, and apparently there is evidence that this can be linked with chosen lifestyle and career.

This worries me far more than you can imagine.

(Name change obviously)
For me it's simply A.

I've done plenty of dishonest things where I felt secure that I wouldn't get caught (and I was right, I never have been). Not likely to steal in the small shop scenario - the risk would feel quite high, with not much reward.

This.

It's not fear of the repercussions that stop me but the basic knowledge that it's wrong.

I don't agree. What would stop me from stealing something I wanted but which was too expensive would be the lack of desire to steal. The desire isn't there. It's not a desire which is curbed by a) or b) from the OP's choices. So my answer would still be C) I have no desire to steal.

I don't steal it because I don't need it. I don't have to indulge random wants.

You only have to look at what’s going on in the USA. I think it’s Walmart who have closed down stores in the poorer areas of some states because the authorities are turning a blind eye to the blatant and brazen theft going on. People going in and grabbing as much stuff as they can, and just leaving. Those same communities are now saying that Walmart are wrong to have closed the stores because they’ve left people with nowhere to buy food.

The question is WHY do you think it's wrong. If I said 'I think being gay is wrong' you would very rightly ask 'why do you think that?' so that's what I'm asking MN.

The question is why you think it’s wrong. What stops you ?

OP- genuine question. How well do you think you’re doing in your effort to spark philosophical debate ?

OK I'll have another go... I think there are situations where 'it's wrong' may just be a social construct (like walking on the wrong side of the escalator) but I think there's another level of wrong-ness that unfortunately doesn't have its own word. For the wrong side of the escalator stuff I think that being caught/nobody being hurt may well be a factor in deciding whether to do it or not. But for the next level of wrong-ness, that doesn't come into it, at least for me.

NLP has a concept of internal/external reference, which is basically about whether you are internally programmed to make judgments based on your own opinions or on the feedback of others. An internally focussed person will just say 'it's wrong because I know it's wrong' and if pressed, may say it's misaligned with their beliefs, values etc. An externally focussed person is more likely to say 'it's wrong because society says so' and if pressed, may refer to laws, customs and consequences.

I tend to believe that we all have a preference for one approach or the other, though it's rare to find anyone who will always operate the same way regardless of the circumstances.

I think that may explain why so many are saying 'it's just wrong'. If you want to know why we think it's wrong, it's no good asking whether it comes from this or that consequence. It doesn't come from any consequence, it comes from an internalised set of values and beliefs. Where they come from is indeed an interesting question, but it's not the question that was asked.

Worries me too !1

It's wrong because someone else's property is theirs until given to me. Whether it's given through and exchange of goods and money or given as a gift is immaterial.

I wouldn't like someone taking something which belongs to me and I treat people and businesses as I want to be treated.

For me the question of whether something is right or wrong depends heavily on whether I would like to be on the receiving end of the action.

Would I like someone to take something of mine without permission? No. Therefore how could it be okay to inflict that on someone else?

Would the intention/circumstances of the thief make a different to me if I was the victim? Yes - if someone had stolen my lunch (for example) and I found out it was because they were starving, I would feel very differently to if they'd stolen something they just wanted.

There’s no A or B for me. It simply isn’t even in my thoughts to steal something.
my first thought would be “I wish I could afford that. Maybe I will get it next month.” Then I’d put it back and walk away.

Similarly, the question of morality only comes into play for me when an action impacts someone else (even if the impact is indirect).

Someone being gay does not impact me, either negatively or positively. Therefore I would struggle to see any reason why it could be 'wrong'.

Historically, the argument for homosexuality being 'wrong' was a religious one. However, I don't base any of my ethics on what an imaginary deity might have decreed thousands of years ago. I view religion as a tool that's used to control people, not a force for good.

Same. If I were in that position, I probably wouldn’t be in the posh food/homewares shop just before pay day anyway!

Someone being gay does not impact people outside of the couple themselves, either negatively or positively. Therefore I would struggle to see any reason why it could be 'wrong'.

(^ rephrased as it's not just about the impact on me, but the impact on all other people.)

This neatly illustrates the point I was trying to make. Why you think it's wrong, and what stops you, are two entirely different questions.

If you want to know why I think it's wrong then that's what you need to ask. I would probably answer 'I just know it's wrong' and if you want to probe deeper, you'd have to ask 'how is it that you know that?'

Interesting. So in the scenario where society has no rules, we could only hope there were more internally focused folk around than externally focused ?

I was just reading through your last post and about to ask a question, but I think I get it now - you’re tapping into their personal belief system by asking not why do you think that, but how do you know that ?